Chewing the Channel: In conversation with Paul Reames

Farming, cultural fit and keeping the faith: Chewing the Channel with Paul Reames

In the new episode, Will’s talking to Paul Reames, Director, Bluecube Cloud Services. His best advice? “Take all the advice you can get… and decide afterwards if the advice is good or not.”

From selling advertising space in London to his pivotal first role in telecoms, Paul discusses the value of the right guidance, relentless improvement and surrounding himself with the right people. 

But it was a deeply personal moment, the passing of his father, that sparked the founding of Bluecube in 2008, beginning with nothing more than a small IKEA desk, a laptop and a mobile phone.

Today, Bluecube offers full-service tech and IT solutions under one roof, solving a key problem for businesses: consolidating multiple providers into a single, streamlined service. Paul shares insights on the challenges of entrepreneurship, the importance of company culture, and his views on industry issues such as long-term service contracts.

Listen now for Paul’s candid reflections, personal insight and best advice.

Website: www.elevate.uk/wholesale

LinkedIn: Will Goodall

Phone: 0330 058 9530

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hi everyone, you fritter will at Chewing the Channel. This is my 55th take on this. This never normally happens. I'm with Mr. Lincoln, uh Paul Reims of Blue Cube Cloud Services Limited, owner and founder, 17 and a half years in the business. I'm going to chat through his journey from Lincoln, potentially working in the rural industry, going to London, working in bars, selling advertising, everything you could name. He's done, moved out of there, worked into Peterborough, great town. Started in the telecoms journey there, and through to starting a business in his bedroom, believe it or not. So really looking forward to this one. And not only has he done those things, he's changed his business from an ISP to an MSP. You know, what more could you want? So I hope you enjoy this. And uh as always, we're available on the usual forum. Hello, Mr. Reams. Will thank you very much. Yeah, you look very nervous. There's nothing to be nervous about. Well, there might be. I said to you before, I don't massively plan these things, so we'll see where the conversation goes. Yeah, it's doing it. Um I've been looking forward to this because obviously I've been aware of you guys just through reputation, um, yourself, um, for a number of years. I think you know, I I tell you this anecdote every time I see you, and it must be incredibly bored, and you know what I'm gonna say, but not a lot of people know this outside. But Mr. Eames, your your um late father was a very, very influential figure at Lincoln City Football Club director. Um, and was he chairman? He was chairman for 15 years. 15 years, and um I remember I was my local team was Northwich Victoria and Lincoln um played us in the FA Cup. And um I always remember in the bar with a with these blokes with like Lincoln ties and uh you know from Northwich, is it stands out and um remember chatting to them and I was chatting to your dad, and uh always struck me, absolute gentlemen they were, and he was in terms of really gracious in terms of the hospitality, and um it's always stuck with me there, and I think probably the joy of non-league where you get that interaction, but that's where I kind of remembered your the surname, and then remember when we spoke, I'd not because I'm not the brightest, twigged it. And when you said, Yeah, I remember that, not that conversation, but yeah, my dad was and I thought it's such a small world sometimes when you think fast forward from there. So that was probably what 2009 or something like that, eight or something. Yeah, 2008, you passed away, yeah. So a year or two before, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Um I think I remember the game you're talking about, actually. Yeah, Chris Sutton.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Chris Sutton was the manager, I think, for ill-fated period. You definitely won. There's not for bricks. Um, but yeah, so I'd I've kind of where the name, where the business, and and I'm really excited for this one because you actually are well, besides my mum, one of our listeners who um kind of mentioned it to me, and you were someone I've always wanted to get on the as a guest because your journey is quite a unique one, but also there's a few topical things that I think are quite interesting in terms of the channel and the market now. So we've got things like moving from an ISP to an MSP, scaling a business, um acquiring businesses, integrating that business into the culture, um a little bit of the let's say it miss selling that's happened in the industry with regards to voice and the impact that has on other businesses, and you know, we've seen big BBC documentaries on it and things like that, and then also the fact that you are and you won't you won't agree with this, Mr. Lincoln and owning a business in a city where if you do something you know negative, everybody knows. Absolutely. Whereas if you're in a a and I'm not suggesting in London that you can get away with it massively, but the market is so vast with so many businesses, you can provide, you know, if there are a few iffy services, there's a there's a bigger market for you to go at. But in Lincoln, the pressure, same as if you're in you know Blackburn or Huddersfield or Leeds, it's quite compounding on there in terms of a business owner. So I want to kind of touch on that, and then I'm also interested that uh a lad from Lincoln would would begin his journey and go to London as well and start your business uh uh sales history there. But kind of going back, grew up in Lincoln?

SPEAKER_01 4:43

I I was born in Lincoln, and um my dad before we got into football was actually a grain merchant. Um a grain merchant, a grain merchant, so he he'd buy from the farmers and sell to the mills, and and that that was how he made his living. Um he worked for a a big grain merchant in the Lincoln area and then started his own business with um a couple of other colleagues and moved. What prompted him to do that? Uh I'm not sure to be honest with you. I I guess he wanted to be, you know, master of his own destiny, really, you know, my dad. Was that the same for you? Yes, yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

It's interesting, isn't it? A lot of the time you have um entrepreneurs like yourself. There's uh either a parent or a a key figure who had that same um itch, if you like, where they were doing things for other people, but someone stimulated them, and yours is not too dissimilar with you know vodaf phone, etc. But then kind of making that move.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

So he he um he started his own business in the in the grain industry, and then just yeah, and then we moved we moved out of Lincoln to um uh between Lincoln and Petersborough to a town called Bourne where we're just outside of Bourne, but that's where he worked. So I kind of grew up uh around that area. Went to school in town called Grampton where Margaret Thatcher is famously uh from, and then um ended up back in Lincoln again, you know, uh at college uh before going off to Union and and then there was a journey south, and I I've ended up back in Lincolnshire for sort of 20 plus years now.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

So when you were growing up, you're seeing your dad kind of make that move from you know, at that time probably a secure job himself to start his own business. When you look back on it now, do you kind of do you see some seeds being no no pun intended with grain, but do you see some seeds being planted there for yourself where you're kind of witnessing a key figure almost take take a risk really because it you know I assume when he's doing that he's got he's got bills to pay and all those different things.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Yeah, well it it it's a strange one. I mean I was I was two when we moved out of out of Lincoln and um and moved to South Lincolnshire, so it was it was not amazing change I remember.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

But you've got your young young child, two-year-old, that's probably the last like I'm speaking this as a father of three with a baby. I will be petrified to start my own business with young kids, whereas your dad's kind of had the opposite sort of approach.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Well it was a different time, wasn't it, as well, you know. So I'm one of five. Um I'm the second youngest, I'm the oldest boy. I've got a younger brother and three older sisters. So my mum, you know, got sort of uprooted and moved to this village called Falkium, uh, had to make new friends and bring up five kids pretty much on her own because my dad was working, you know, all of the hours that were available to him. Um and he worked hard, but it you know, it was very much like that. Mum bought up the family and dad, you know, developed the business and brought in the income, and that's kind of how things were about then. So yeah, I didn't I don't really remember him him making that move. Um Dad and I didn't had didn't tend to have long, deep conversations about anything much other than football, really, when I was younger. So um he's not around these days, but it would have been nice to be able to pick his brain and ask his advice about why he did things and you know get some advice from him about what I should do or should have done. But you know, he wasn't around to ask those questions really. And probably one of my regrets is that we didn't talk more about, you know, kind of the important stuff we just talked about football, which of course is very important as well. But that was our main topic of conversation.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

No, it's it's a really good point. I think it's probably a lot of I it's probably a a blokey thing because you know, if I speak about my dad's and my relationship, probably 90% is football or going to the football together. But I I kind of hear you as well because I do use him on on the business side for advice and things, and having that is important, but we're probably a bit rubbish at that, aren't we? Sometimes as dads, or growing up in that particular area, it's certainly my dad as well, where you're very direct in your conversation of it's football, don't talk about that, and it's closed off, whereas I think now it's probably a bit different. So, but saying that I would think, Mr. Eames, that a lot of stuff that you'll have seen influence your decisions just through your kind of upbringing and and the sort of values you pick up without naturally kind of asking for them.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah, yeah, no, no, for sure. Um I mean my father was a you know big inspiration to me when when I was younger and you know later life and he still is. Um thinking about it back then, I think it was quite a negative thing, his success when I was younger, because I kind of looked at him and I felt, well, how can I how can I live up to you know what my dad's achieved? You know, he's he started a business, he's he's grown that business, he sold it to an American, you know, food group for you know a lot of money, bought into a football club that he loves, which is you know the club he'd watched since he was a kid, um, and then come out of football and you know and and all the things he achieved really. And it was a bit of a you know, it was a bit of a monkey on my back, I guess, when I was younger, being quite honest. Um and then when Dad passed away in 2008, and we were we were great mates, you know, so that was a b that was a big, a big moment in my life, really. Um, you know, it was only then that it sort of clicked that actually it was never a competition, you know. I was never competing against my dad, you know, and he I'm sure he didn't see it that way. He just wanted me to sort of find my own way and do and do my own thing, and and then kind of the values that he instilled in all of us, really. He didn't give a lot of advice out, he gave out advice to me a couple of times in my life that I can remember, and there were big moments and it was good advice, but he didn't throw advice around, you know, um when it wasn't wanted. Um when it was wanted, he didn't he didn't throw it around. Um so yeah, I I think you you know going back to your your point about about men not speaking enough, and I think you know we don't, you know. My wife spends a good hour on the phone to her sister every night, and they talk about I don't know what they talk about for an hour, but they they speak every evening, and you know, um I think men just have just kind of built differently, really. But I think we're starting to realise that maybe that's not the best way forward.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

No, I I do agree with you, and I think you know, it's it's it's it's something we need to get better at. I I'm the same as you. I think a lot of times, you know, I talk to my wife, she'll speak to her friends all the time. I can go months without seeing a friend, and when we catch up, it's like we've we've oversaw each other the other day and the same thing. So it's interesting though, I think, particularly when you talk about that pressure in terms of that you're putting on yourself because you're kind of growing up, and you you know, I guess it goes back to running a business in Lincoln as well, where you your dad's kind of sold his business, he's a key figure at the local football team, everyone knows him, and you're kind of wanting to make your own way and um prove yourself, I suppose, for one of a better better description. Did that kind of prompt you to move out of Lincoln and and what was that journey to start your telecommunication? Because you were very defended.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Well, I mean there was no there was no um you know preconceived idea about what I was gonna do when I moved to London. Um was it always gonna be sales? Well, when I was a primary school age, I remember my headmistress said to my mum at primary school, you know, Paul's gonna be a super salesman, he's gonna sell something like I don't know, uh oil tankers or something, you know, that's that's gonna be his future. And I remember thinking, that sounds alright, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Was that because gift of the gap?

SPEAKER_01 12:12

I guess we kind of this was sort of ten-year-old me, so yeah, she must have big mouth, and that's why I'll end up in sales. But um no, I didn't really know what I wanted to do, you know, um, until I got into telecoms. Uh I moved to London with a farming qualification because I'd I'd um I'd gone from school to Lincoln College and done business studies and then got to sort of 18 and decided, well, what do I want to what do I want to do? My dad was a grey merchant, so I thought, okay, well I'll go into agricultural marketing, see if I like that. I didn't at all. It wasn't me.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Um, it's interesting because I imagine that would have been quite uh an easy entry point for you based on your dad, influences, the name, all that stuff. People would have snapped your hand off to go into that, but you're actually looking at it going, I'm not gonna enjoy that. Yeah, so I want there's something different for me. I want to take the harder talking about bad communication.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

You know, when I was got into I got into the the first year of that three-year course, and dad sold the business, had no idea he was going to do it. So any idea I had about working for the family business was kind of out the window. So that might have had something to do, might have been going to the industry as well. But didn't it interest me really? You know, I was there at Harper Adams uh uh agricultural university, I think it is now, and um you know, I was learning about you know how much energy a chicken can produce, and you know, it just it just wasn't it didn't you know float my boat at all. But uh you know, I I did the three years there, I moved to London and um I started working in bars uh and in a restaurant in Chiswick, you know, just to earn some money while I was trying to figure out what I was going to do. And uh you went there without a job, you've just kind of gone to the big smoke and thought I had a girlfriend down there, so that was my that was my foot in the door, really. So stay with me and uh you know I moved down there, got a bar job, and I worked in a restaurant as well. And a guy I worked with, actually, a guy called Jose Foister said, Um, do you got another job during the day? And I said, What'd you do? He said, Well, I I sell advertising space for um farming news. You probably won't have heard of it. That's all I have actually from Lincolnshire. He said, Well, I can probably get you a job there.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

So I said You can't escape the farming, can you? I've moved to the city.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

So I mean I thought, what's farming gonna do for me in London? But you know, it was it was useful. Um so I had an interview with this guy called Brian Bracken, a lovely Yorkshireman, and he said, I'll give you a chance, I'll give you a chance. And he did, and we started selling advertising space in um Watson Farming magazine and farming news, and that's what just picked out the phone. I've seen your advert in Farmers Weekly. Do you want to advertise in my magazine and give them the circulation stats and why they should do it? And before I knew it, I was kind of you know, um I was I was doing pretty well and I was and I thought, yeah, maybe sales is for me. So that was my that was my introduction to sales, really. Um but it was still, you know, talking about something I wasn't particularly interested in. Uh and then I took another role uh in in London Bridge, working for a guy who sold broken space in anything he could get his hands on when he thought he might better make some money out of, so he'd buy a couple of pages in Hello magazine or okay magazine, and then we'd call and you know, sell that space as broken space. Did that for a little while longer, and then a friend I'd known from a previous role had moved to Thompson Directories where he got a car, you know. It was like, okay, now we're talking, I'll get a car.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

I remember that. I remember I bet a lot of people watching and listening will still remember this. Used to for me when I was like, I must have been 23, 24 looking for jobs. It was golf GTI included and things like that, and you were like, Yeah, I'll fancy a bit of that.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

It was just golf or GTI or something like that. But um, but actually, I mean Thompson's as a job was a pretty terrible job, you know. You had to sell you know, telephone directory space to plumbers and roofers in their homes in the evening, and you know, it's what we did it for a year, it was it was a pretty awful job. But you were selling against you know yellow pages who were the number one. So we were the underdog, you know, so that made you a better salesperson, and their sort of structured way of selling was quite a good introduction to face-to-face selling for me as well. So, you know, it was all part of the journey, really.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Well, it was it's it's because um we were talking to um by by the time this comes out, it'll come out, but uh Johnny uh CO at uh Access 4, and he had a background through uh Phones for You in the early days, and a lot of the structure, even though it was if you look back on it, maybe boiler room-esque, yeah, it gave him a lot of core fundamentals that he applied in future careers. So I imagine if you're doing the directory there, it's evenings, it's more calls, keep hit, you know, follow this structure, but you really need to uh put the effort in, so to speak, to get the rewards.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Well, that then that's that's sales, that's life, isn't it? You know, when you put the effort in. But yeah, there was like a ladder to getting the customer to say yes. That was the way that Thompson's sort of taught it. And a few of those rungs on the ladder, you thought, I can't say that, that sounds terrible, you know. That's not that's not me. So you miss out the bits that you know in other roles, I've sort of taken that into other roles and missed out the rungs in the ladder that I don't like and just left the ones in that I feel are important, and that's that's worked really well for me.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

I think it's a it's a it's a key thing for anyone because there will be people that just follow the runs and they don't question it and they don't add their own interpretation and they're not trying to adapt to it, but you're already showing um the actual I'm gonna alter that, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this for for my own benefit, and it is benefiting you and and that kind of approach, I imagine, it's kind of carried on during during your your journey. Um so you're you're cold calling in the evenings to plumbers, um, still working. Well, can you work in a bar as well, or you're going into the bar afterwards? No, no, the bar. I was just going to bars at that point. Yeah, just stationary commissioned now, so you don't need to work in a bar. What made the move from advertising then into Vodafone? And imagine was there a step in between, or because you've kind of done a few bits where it's you're working up the advertising run there, you know, you're going up the step of the next one's yellow pages. What what prompted you to kind of move into that? Well, uh AI hated the job.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

That's always the thing, yeah. That'll look like that. That helps kind of uh make the decision to to move uh away from it. But I worked with a lady um in the previous role at in London Bridge um who had moved um sorry, we shouldn't move, she was in Nottingham anyway, when she she worked from home um at the previous company, and she'd started in um in telecoms at a company called Project Telecom, and she'd ended up becoming their sales director very quickly. It was early days for Project Telecom, and they're a really interesting business. I don't know if you remember them, but they were mobile phone service provider, um photophone notice, all they did. Uh and they when I joined them, there were maybe 30 people in the business, and over a sort of four-year, five-year period, it grew to about four hundred people. That was a booming time, wasn't it? Yeah, there was so much money in mobile back then, it was crazy. And you know, he sold the business for a lot of money to Vodafone, and that's why I ended up working at Vodafone. But that that role was probably the most um pivotal one in in my career, really, because I I'd ended up working for them in their Peaceborough office, which is a small regional office, they were based in sort of around the Nottingham area. Um my first day there, there was a Canadian guy there, and he said to me, He goes, You'll never hit your target, mate, it's impossible. It's impossible. I thought what's the well I knew what the target was. The target was selling 40 mobile contracts a month. I said, Oh, well, you know, I'm gonna give it a go. I'm gonna give it a go. And anyway, there were about four people in the team in the Peaceborough office, and nobody was doing their numbers, and the the the the manager was kind of you know never present. He was just uh not a great manager. And um, so the manager was the first to go, and then a new guy came in and and he sat us down and said, you know, look, you know, things are gonna change. Um and the the regional offices weren't really working for Project Telecom's business model business business model anyway. So I think the plan was to get rid of these small regional offices and bring all the sales team into the corporate sales team. So uh I had a meeting with my sales director, my my new manager, and he basically said, Look, you know, you're on a performance programme. I said, Well, I'm doing the best numbers in our team. And he said, Yeah, you know, but you're not doing your target. He said, There's no point being better than the rest when the rest is, you know, terrible. You've got to be hitting you know your target month on month for I'm afraid, you know, it's it's gonna be out the door for you. So and I looked at my sales director at the time, who Judith, who I'd I'd known for quite a while, and sort of looked her in the eye like, help me, and she sort of looked at me like I can't help you, you know, it's down to you. But what my manager, a guy called Nigel Goodell, said at the time, he said, Look, you know, that's the bad news. The good news is I'm here to help you to do that, and I'm gonna support you in every welcome to meetings with you, I'll tell you what you need to do, and I'll support you all the way to make sure you know you achieve that and you hit starting your target, and within a couple of months, you know, and he kept his word, he was going to every meeting, you know, he's giving me advice and um really useful advice. And before I knew it, I was hitting my target every month, and before I knew it, I was in the corporate sales team, and I was beating most of the guys that are in the corporate sales team.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

But it's interesting though, when you come into that environment, is straight away someone saying target's impossible, you know, you're not gonna achieve, and you're outperforming them, but not to the level that the business needs you to be at, and you're in that situation, and a lot of people you can go left and right, can't you? You can either go, Yeah, you've said that, Nigel, I'm not I don't care. Uh I'm gonna get a job in publishing again, or I'm gonna go, but you've gone right, okay. That's great. Challenge accepted if you like. And and is that something that you've you've always kind of tried to be? You can kind of see that with Lincoln, I'm not gonna do agriculture, I'm gonna go to London, I'm gonna get into this. Did if there's a challenge, you don't seem to run away from it.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

No, I could have jumped ship at that point, and you know, and a few people in that team did. Well, it was a great team, and a few of them got let go and the the other two uh moved on to other jobs. But you know, I yeah, I I guess I was I was at a point in my life where I've got two young children. Uh my oldest two girls who were 26 and 24 now were were you know very young then, and it wasn't as easy as just you know throwing a towel in and trying to find another job. I needed to make that job work for me. So I got my head down and and I worked really hard. Um my manager said you know, and when you get your first commission check, you can buy a new suit because that suit is terrible. And I bought myself a I bought a crumby suit, you know, a£500 suit, which is 25 years ago, was a lot of money. I know, I see you in it now regularly. What I learned in that role, and that's why I say it was a really pivotal role in my career, is that you know, you get out of you know, life, what you put into it really, and I worked really hard, incredibly hard for that first three months, and to have got to you know the first month where I hit my target and exceeded my target, and it was uh you know, it was upwards from there really. Um, because the target was 40, and then when you went to corporate it was a hundred, you know, and then a hundred looked like an easy target within you know a year of uh changing my mindset. And I think it's just about being around um the right people, you know. I was around a load of people that weren't performing, and I was performing better than better than them, and I thought that was enough. And clearly that wasn't enough for the business, you know. I guess that now.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

There's that joke, there's not a joke, there's that um there's a motivational thing people say where it's it's this this anecdote of if you're running competing in a race uh against nine slower people and you beat them every time, your time will be lower than if you're competing against nine people who are faster than you because you're constantly having to improve and the standards set that much higher. So you've your pace in the in the tough race, if you like, will be faster than racing against people that you you already you know beating. So you've kind of done that approach, and you've gone, mate, this this needs to work, kind of batten down the hatches. I've got a family to provide for, but again, that's interesting because you're not kind of going, I can go back to Lincoln, I'll take the family back, you know, dad's old his business, there's a bit of money, I can he can sort me out and I can do this. It's not I am standing on my own two feet and gonna make a success of it, and that's you know, yeah, interesting. The way I was brought up, really. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

You know, we would nothing was ever there on the table for us as as you know, as kids from my dad. My dad made him, you know, he did really well in life, but he started from nothing, you know. He came from a councillor estate in Lincoln and you know, did well at school and got himself a job and you know worked his way up in life. And I think he felt, you know, not that he you know communicated this to us particularly strongly, but just looking back on it now, I think he felt very strongly that his kids should do the same. And I try and install those values in my own kids as well, you know. Um I think that's important.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

And it's important to touch on as well before we kind of push through from vodaphone that your mum raising five kids, that was probably equally, probably harder. Two boys and three girls, um almost single-handedly with your dad working. That's a great example to see as well in the home because speaking with three kids, we struggle. So goodness knows how you do with five, and the time-ins and all that stuff, and and and wanting to make sure that everything kind of runs. Um that's that's um massively uh difficult to do as well. And to see someone doing that as during uh an upbringing is is um quite inspirational. And I think a lot of time we we focus on the worker, be it the mum or the dad, and if if someone's at home, you can kind of it gets taken for granted that it's you know, watching GM TV and and but it's far, far, far from the truth.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

So it's a team effort, isn't it? You know, yeah um I said you know, it was there were different times then, you know, where mum didn't have a career of her own, but she brought up five children, you know, and uh you know obviously that's over a lot of years, five five children. So and she didn't drive when we first moved out to this village in Lincolnshire, you know, since she had bus everywhere with the colour.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Anyone knows Lincolnshire, that's difficult. Yeah, yeah. Very flat. You've you've moved up to corporate, you've got the£500 suit, you're driving the the Allegra, and mobile phones are flying out, there's commission, there's that real because uh you know, definitely Johnny and a few others will know this, even Jay, who kind of came through the mobile background, there's there's money, there's real opportunity there. What what kind of prompted you because you had a you know a little move from Vodah, but uh are you kind of as you're doing that and earning you know great commission and achieving, is there part of you that's thinking, This is great, but there's something missing a bit as a top, you know, missing a little bit of not quite at that stage, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

They were like Halcyon days for me. We were you know the Project Telecom team were a great team, we've got a lot of friends still now from that team, and we had a lot of fun, it was kind of work hard, play hard, we're all learning good money, um, and having a good time doing it. So, you know, at that point I was quite content. Um, but the business got sold to Vodafone. Um, and Tim Radford, the guy that that started the business and and grew it, and uh, he was a great guy as well. He was a big Forest fan, and if if you did well against your target, you know, you get taken to Forest that he had a box there, and we're at Forest, and he sat down with Sounds like a punishment.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

I'll watch any football, you know. But yeah, um but we sat there and he said, Uh, yeah, how are you doing guys? How is it out there? And we said, Yeah, yeah, great, great Mr. Radford, yeah, we're we're all doing well. I said, you know, it's good, isn't it? And he said, and he's just kind of pulled his face as if to say that he made a decision and he wasn't gonna let us know what it was. And within about a week of that conversation, he was sitting in front of the whole company saying, Look, you know, it's a sad day, but I'm here to tell you that I'm I've agreed to sell the business to Vodafone. So I ended up working for Vodafone by by default, really. Um, and that was exciting because it was, you know, it was a it was a massive brand, it's still a massive brand now, but it was an even bigger brand, you know, back in the in the early noughties. Um, you know, they had David Beckham advertising their brand on TV. It was it was one of the biggest brands in the world. So it was a real door opener saying you're from Vodafone, you can get appointments to see anybody. And it was back then my job was still self-gen leads, you know, you've got to get an area and um a bit of data for the area and generate your own appointments and then turn those appointments into business. So things are much easier these days for the sales team. I keep reminding my guys of that. Uh yeah, they have they got it easy.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

You got it easy, you get pre-boxing, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

But there, but then it started feeling a little bit like there was an itch that I needed to scratch, yeah. Like um, you know, I I had more to offer than than just being a salesman. I felt like I, you know, I wouldn't be content with just that for the rest of my career. Um, and I started looking at other roles within in Vodafone, and it was Newbury based. I was in Lincolnshire, so it's a four-hour drive, and they wanted you to be in Newbury, you know, three to four days a week for these bigger roles I was looking at, and um I kept getting pipped to the post for for these sort of promotions. So I moved to T Mobile here in Hatfield, that was only two miles down the road, so it was half the journey. But you know, within a a couple of years at T Mobile, I was kind of you know, had the same the same itch really to to do something on my own. And I had spoken to my dad about it. We had a barbecue one day, um, a couple of years before he before he died, and uh I said, you know, I could do something on my own in telecom studies. So well what's your idea? I said, Well, you can you can sell mobile phones as a dealer and get commission from the networks, and he sort of went right. And that that was about my business plan at the time, really. You know, there was not a lot of meat on the bones, and he sort of he kind of said to me, just carry on as you are, really, you're doing well, you know, you're doing well in a Vodafone, just keep working hard there or wherever I was with T-Mobile. Um, so a couple of years later, it was my dad's pfft death really that kind of like uh was a catalyst for me doing something on my own. So he died in May 2008, in October 2008, I started the business because I thought, well, you never know what's around the corner. His illness was really quick. Um, and you know, I need to get on with this. And also, um I'd met my wife, Emma, not long before that, and I'd said to her, Look, it you know, I don't really want to go. But I had a bit of time off um after my dad passed away. Um, and I'd gone back to work, not really knowing that day that I was gonna resign. And my boss um sat me down and said, Look, you know, I'm really sorry, you know, hope you hope you're doing okay. We need you back on on form because you know, we've we've missed your numbers where you've been off. And I said, you know, I've got to be honest with you, James, my heart's not in it, really. And he said, Well, what are you gonna do? I said, I've got no idea, you know. He said, Well, let's pretend we haven't had this conversation for another month. So he gave me that extra month's grace to try and decide what I was gonna do, which you know I'll be ever grateful for. And I looked at other roles in the industry and I thought, well, if I take any of these jobs, I'm gonna be in the same place, you know, in in a year or two's time as I'm in now. So I thought, well, I'm well, I'll I'll I'll start a business and I'll I'll see how it goes. And that was you know, October 2008. The birth of Blue Cube, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

And it it it's such a um it's a unique situation where someone so important and an amazing person passes away, and you kind of look at it and go, um life is too short. And I think a lot of us kind of you you get groundhog day with with jobs particularly or businesses, and you just can can go, I'll just I'll I'll I'll put that decision off for next year or the year after, but you've you've done something where you've gone we need to make a move and I'm gonna start something. And Blue Cube was born, and that was what working from home to start with, or did you have some off space or you oh no, no no no work from home.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

I mean I went to a ICER and bought the smallest desk you've ever seen, um, and a s and a tiny laptop and and a mobile phone, and that was the the start of the business really. Um and it was a it was a kind of a dealer model, you know, to start with. We were just sort of selling other people's products and getting a commission for it, and that was the first sort of year of Blue Cube, really, until I figured out that I hadn't really got a business doing that. I was just kind of like a freelance salesperson and I wasn't building anything, and you know, and I'm I'm all for you know taking advice from people, you know. Take the take all the advice you can get is my um you know, sort of outlook on life, and then decide whether you think it's good advice or not, but get the advice first. So I was listening to people in you know around me that would that have been doing this for longer, and they were saying, you know, you you need to start billing, you need to start billing your own services. Um, because then you've got you know, you've got a basic customer as you're building, you've got a business, and that's gonna be worsened for it eventually. So it wasn't long before we s we signed up for a billing platform and started buying wholesale services and billing ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

It's responsible to start as a as a as a dealer because of the um there's a risk of the financial liability, you kind of the sort of customers you want to deal with, um understanding your values as a business and all that stuff in a year while while generating income. But then you're right. I I see a lot of businesses in unfortunate in my line where there is that point where you kind of go, Well, we could be billing this and we could add some value to the business and recurring revenues, and actually I can build a brand because sometimes it could be you're a dealer for someone and you're not too happy with with that service, and your reputation is is is tarnished with it, whereas it gives you a lot more control over the customer because you're you're dealing with them day to day, so to speak. Um, so you still at home though when you started to Blue Cube have you got a first office space or you've moved into white kicked you out.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Yeah, well uh the office, by the way. I've never been a big home worker, to be quite honest. I I like being I like to get up in the morning and and go to work, and then you of course you can leave and come home and you can switch off. And I've that's been my way of switching off from business really over the years, because you know, when you run a business, if you're not careful, you never stop thinking about it. Um so I think it's important to try and find that divide.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Yeah, because we I know like totally separate, we've had conversations, and you mentioned to me, particularly when you know Blue Cube um had grown and was was looking at different products that uh it impacted you from a a personal point of view where you're make you're thinking, Oh you know, I'm worrying about my customers making sure that they're happy with the new services and security, and I don't want them to be impacted. And that's a dress that a lot of business owners take on. And I think you know, I've just talked to to Mr. Drake about this, and a lot of time people see the person now who's who's got a business and you know is perceived as as you know successful and all those things, but they don't see that journey to there and the sacrifice and the worry and and and all those different things. And the worry is still there now in terms of you know, you're catching up off air, you talk about targets, and I want to try and grow and all these things, and it's it's it's how you manage that. I mean, uh, how do you do deal with that? Um, because you've you've had 17 years practice and it's and looking at you, yeah, it feels like you're still evolving that. Like I'd say it, yeah. Well I'd I I I would I worry um as an employee, you know, I I worry about my partners and service and stuff like that. And I imagine it's compounded 10 times when it's your business, your brand, everything that you've worked for, you know, yeah, it's so I mean it can be stressful, it can be stressful running a business, but it can be a lot of fun as well, and it's incredibly rewarding.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

But the way I've always dealt with with Blue Cube is just sort of day by day, you know. Um and every year is thrown a different challenge, well, every year, every week, every month is thrown a different challenge at us, you know. You just when you think you've seen it all, you know, and something you've never even thought could be a problem comes out of the woodwork, and you know, you get a global pandemic chucked at you for a couple of years, and you know, the economy's always up and down.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

So there's always something you what started 2007.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

2008.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

2008 crash a couple of years later, yeah. Mobile phones after that, you've got kind of your phones for you, crack, you've got the market changing massively there, mid of a massive recession, massive recession. Well, the start of a massive recession, um and then kind of mid, you've got you know, kind of looking at um on the connectivity side where fiber's becoming more prevalent during that, then you've got global pandemic, you have all these things that have in have, and there's probably thousands of other things that have impacted you as a business owner, be it people, customers, products, suppliers, all these different things within there. So you you mentioned before that you always take try and take as much advice as as possible. Obviously, you make your decision, but you you have that network. Do you think that's important as a business owner? Because ultimately you are responsible. So all employees at BlueCube are looking at you for the answers, and all the you know, that's a pressure in itself. Have you always had a council of people that you can go to for advice, be it a mentor, be it you know, another business owner who who can give you you know advice that you trust as you know authentic?

SPEAKER_01 37:55

It's difficult when you're in a business because it can be a bit of a lonely role because you know, you can't just bounce ideas off anybody, it has to be somebody whose opinion you trust, you know. And my wife Emma started the business, you know, she's been with us from the beginning. Um, so we talk about, you know, we try not to talk about it too much in the evenings, but we talk about you know business issues and business problems and what we can do. So Emma's advice has been um really useful over the years. But uh there are you know there have been different people over during different periods of the business sort of journey that I've listened to really. Um and as you said, I don't always take their advice. Sometimes I kind of think, well, actually, I don't agree with that. I'm gonna go down a different route and you know, you have to sort of live by that decision right or wrong.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Yeah, it can reaffirm your original view, but at least you feel you've you've got more of a balanced one, I imagine.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

You just need to sound things out sometimes, you know, and and just sometimes just by talking about it with someone that you you know whose opinion you trust, you kind of you you arrive at the answer yourself, you know, just by discussing it. So yeah, it's been as I say, every every year it's had a different um sort of hurdle really, but you you always overcome them.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

What was the first challenge that Blue Cube encountered when you look back that you thought, bloody hell, this is you know, almost that fork we'll we'll go back to this almost that uh conversation with Nigel, was it the sales manager? You're gonna go on a pit, good news I'll get you out of it, but you can go left or right in that situation. What was the first sort of time with Blue Cube where you're kind of thinking, Oh god, this is hard work, this I could I should I could go back to you know vote a phone or out of whoever it is and get a corporate sales job or or whatever?

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Yeah, well, in the very early days, um, you know, I I quit my job without planning to, as I mentioned, you know, I sort of went to work that day and decided to to to leave T-Mobile because I wanted to do something different, so we haven't got a lot of money saved saved. Um living a salesperson's lifestyle, weren't you? I was living a salesperson's lifestyle, I got you know, I got a car car finance to pay and you know um rent to pay. We didn't even own our own house then. And uh so yeah, you know, the the the outgoings were there, but the income you know wasn't always there, and it was like I say, we we started off on a sort of like a dealer model where we were in commission for for um business that we brought in. And I remember on when I actually got married, um a friend of mine had an apartment out in the south of France and said, You want a present for me and you can use my apartment for for your honeymoon, he said great. So I flew and her out to um Saint Trepay around there, and uh we went to the apartment for the first three or four days of the honeymoon, we had no money to do anything until the checker cleared to pay some commission so we could actually take her out and she could enjoy her honeymoon. Um Do you know what?

SPEAKER_00 40:46

That's a really you you triggered a memory from me. So um I remember going on holiday with my father-in-law, who um had his own business, and for the first three days of that holiday, he didn't speak really. And we found out it's because he was he was due, he was um like a builder merchant, and he was due a check to clear that would he'd already settled supplies and things like that, so his bank account was was naught and he was waiting for this money to come in, and it was kind of you know, when you're a kid and you're checking your bank, it was almost like that, and it's just reminded me of that.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

No, it's it's it's really hard, you know. The first three years were really hard financially, it was a massive struggle. You know, we had a we had a bailiff come round because some unpaid council tax, you know, and he put my car down on his list of things. It was about 200 pounds, I think, this council tax we owed. Uh I said, You can't that's you can't take that's a BNW 325. You can't I don't even own it. Um so once you get through that first sort of three years and you start being able to, you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

What kept you going during that three years? Because it would have been quite easy to have gone.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

No, I I I think I probably would have pulled a plug on it in the first couple of years if it wasn't for Emma saying, look, you know, you can you can do this, you know, we've just got to get through this first um sort of rocky period, and and having you know being with someone that kind of believed in you and believed in what we were trying to achieve together, you know, was what kept me going, I think. Otherwise I may well have just jumped back to a you know an employed role. But once we got past that first sort of three years and you could see that you got a business that was starting to sort of you know earn you money before you got out of bed in the morning and you felt a bit more secure, then you've got yourself get to that point there's no going back, then you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

As a salesperson starting a business, you kind of we need customers who need to be making money. You I can you can generate your own opportunity. Sometimes people start businesses and they don't have that sales bit, and they'll they'll they'll try and bring it in, they might have a great product or a great you know engineering service, but marketing themselves becomes an issue. Whereas you've got that you've done the hard yards in the sort of boiler room environment in London growing up sales-wise, into that. So you've kind of had that those three years, bailiffs, uh lease card nearly got repossessed, and then has there ever been a point and then two like three years, and there's ever a point after that where you felt this is really taking off. This is and did that become uncomfortable in terms of this is a lot bigger than than I thought because sometimes in business.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Well that's that's been quite recent, to be honest with you, you know. But when we were just a comms business, trying to get that, you know, you have this sort of initial period of fairly fast growth where you're kind of going from nothing to something, and then you know, once you're gonna get to a decent level of turnover, then try to keep that growth, you know, that growth curve on the up is it gets more and more difficult. And it's sort of plateau to be honest. So, you know, I think the start of that was COVID really. Um, and we came out of the back of COVID and we tried to make a big thing out of um, you know, UC because obviously everybody changed the railway they were working, and that was our sort of opportunity immediately after COVID. But it still wasn't, you know, we still wasn't Getting I wasn't seeing the growth that I wanted, you know. Um satisfied with. And that's why we were satisfied. I don't know. That means no. Probably not. No, and I don't I'm not sure, you know.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

So when you say comms as well, effectively, I guess you're talking about you would sell a business, the connectivity, the voice services, um, and potentially the sort of uh requirements uh joint business hours where they're asking things for Blue Cube and and you're kind of dealing with with those products and mobiles, I imagine, as well. You did something that successfully that a lot of businesses we're seeing in the in the channel want to do, and that's kind of move from an ISP or the comms section to move into that MSP where you're providing the you know security full service of of solutions. Was that what led you to make that decision? Was it I want to make the business more valuable? Did you see the products as complementary to what you did? What what prompted you to move your business? Not it's not move, but add that sort of skill set into your business.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Pivot, that's what they say, isn't it? Pivot, yeah, pivot. Yeah, low-hanging fruit and pivot. I love this. It gets thrown around a lot, doesn't it? Especially in our industry at the moment. It's something I've been thinking about for a number of years. Um, but it's probably as a lot of the people listening who work in the comms industry would have had similar arrangements. We had referral arrangements with IT companies um where they would pass comms stuff to us that they didn't want to do themselves, and we'd come to an agreement of a we'd look after their customer well, which is all they wanted, or they'd want a bit of a golden handshake and they're getting a revenue share from the deal. But so we we that helped us grow our business. But um I had a a good source of local leads from a um a local IT company. Um, and the guy that ran that business became a good friend. We played then playing golf together, and uh he's still a good friend now. And I didn't want to tread on his toes, you know, by becoming a competitor. I wouldn't have done that to him. So it was an option that I wanted to explore, but one that I couldn't while while um my friend Joey was still doing what he did. But then, you know, being sort of fairly regularly for golf, he you know, he sort of told me that he was thinking about getting out. Um so I started making my my dark evil plan to to step in when he did. So it's no surprise that yeah, that I started the um we did our first sort of acquisition the year, the same year that Jerry sold his business. So um that yeah, cleared the path for us to be sort of you know get into IT locally, and we bought a small IT business because we needed a ready-made team, and it was either we employ people.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

Well, that's interesting because because sometimes some partners have not you know we acquired a business for that. They've kind of gone, right, we're gonna go into this, I'm gonna hire 10-15 new people, and we're gonna do these different things. Whereas you've kind of almost trialled it through the referral bits, you've got exposure, you know there's demand, you've kind of done a lot of due diligence and then acquired a business in. That's not super straightforward having been in you know, sort of things where you've got the Blue Cube way and then you buy a business, people and every business operates differently. We've all got you know different nuances, and ideally, I guess there's a challenge there sometimes where you've got two businesses coming together, becoming one, how you create that consistency, I suppose. Are there any sort of lessons you learn through through that in terms of was it straightforward? Did it make you think I'm gonna buy another 10 businesses like Jay, or did it make you think this needs a lot of thought process when you're bringing a business in and and you know, these are sort of things I wish I'd known at the time.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Yeah, well, I listened to Jay to Jay's interview with you, Will, and um he's a braver man than I am because he's doing it on a much faster scale than than I'll be comfortable with doing at. But um there were a couple of things we used. I think the first challenge we had was like, How do we do it? You know, we could either hire people, and I wouldn't know whether I was hiring a good IT technician or a bad IT technician, it's not my world. Um or we could maybe contract it out to a provider, but then it wouldn't really be our you know, our business. So we made the decision that we were gonna acquire, you know, somebody, um, and it was sort of then, you know, talking to people and getting the right the right fit because then it's out, you know, the the next challenge then once you decide who you're gonna bring in, um, is then try to sort of knit those two teams together, and and that was a challenge.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Well, because you've got that itch, you've got you know, and it seems to be a prominent theme. You could have you could Blue Cube could still be a successful business now, it's a commerce business, but there's an itch before that as a dealer, you got the itch, you wanted to do before that as a salespace, you got the itch, you wanted to do a little bit more. There's always something there. So you what were the sort of lessons that you didn't realise that in hindsight, and hindsight's always it doesn't mean it's a mistake, everyone everything's looks better with hindsight, you go back and change stuff. But are the bits where you've done the transition where you've kind of go, didn't realise it would be involved XYZ, and and I would have perhaps done something differently. There were because it's quite a key question that because there's like I say, it is a it's the hot topic, isn't it, at the minute? And you've kind of done it a few good few years ago. Yeah. People are looking at it now. So, what sort of lessons would you say you learn?

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Probably the hard way, I imagine, as well, because you're dealing with we didn't learn any super hard lessons to be to be quite honest, because it was a it was a sort of planned, well planned, um well-executed um acquisition, if I'm honest with you.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

Because there's a lot of businesses have those informal referral arrangements that you had there. I know quite a few that have the you know, you're in IT sport, we're in this, you we'll pass customers to you, and vice versa.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

But that's all it ever stays as that sort of relationship whereas you've And those relationships were dwindling as well because people were getting more, you know, more and more IT companies were getting into comms and more and more comms companies were getting into IT, and we end up becoming, you know, we're mostly becoming the same thing now at an MSP. So so it was something that you know I think you've either got to do or die, really, you know, in in our industries, you know, you've got to be able to offer the customer everything that they want, um, you know, from one place and on one bill, and that's kind of like you know, that's the the main thing we talk to our customers about now is you know, we we can offer you all of your technology services, we can advise you on what to do, how to move forward, and we can just support you through one support team, bill it on one invoice, and you know, there's a lot of other stuff that we discussed in a sales meeting, but that's that's the sort of the um you know the foundations of what we tell them, and that's the important bit.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

And are you seeing that from so for as a as a wholesaler, I guess, I'm seeing um our partners and other partners want to consolidate suppliers as much as possible and automate as much as possible. And the kind of it's interesting from your side with the customers because historically they might have been happy with this provider for my mobiles, this one for my printers, and this one for my IT support. Are you seeing we want ideally if we can get everything together that makes it easier for us as a business and we're the complexities removed from it, one hand to shake, one throat to choke. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Yeah, it's what it's what businesses want, you know, because it makes sense. And we we'd seen it over the years and comms where you know we'd sell a cloud-based phone system, and the you know, the the system would drop and they'd be saying, Your phone system's not working, and we'll be saying, Well, we're pretty sure it is because it's a rock solid platform we've been providing for 12 years, and it you know, it just doesn't fall over. So it's probably your internet connection. Um, you know, but we don't do that. Um, or if we did do your internet connection, you know, we're saying, Well, your internet connection's up. We know the platform's working, it must be something to do with your local infrastructure, and the customer sat in the middle pulling the hair out, you know, thinking, I just want it fixed. So when you say something you can do it all for them, and you know, the book stops with us, you just call a one number and you you haven't got to think about who you're gonna call, you're just gonna call Blue Cube, and we'll fix it no matter what it is. That's quite a compelling um offer to put in front of people.

SPEAKER_00 52:28

Yeah, I think when you've been in that situation, be it personally or in work, where you know something's wrong, but there's different supplier elements sometimes and you're the conduit between them, it can be quite frustrating. So you can I can see certainly why the the market's moving to that from a from an ease of of of um of that. What's kind of in the an interesting thing for me as well with you starting a business with with your wife Emma, adding employees in? How have you come about with the culture that you've got? So I did a little bit of research, which is rare for me. Um, for example, your sales director's been with you for 11 years, uh, he looks about 10, I'm sure he's a great guy.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

That's an old picture, Willie, won't change it.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

But he's kind of grown, I imagine, through the business, progressed, and and different roles and things like that. What how did you land on the culture of you know the customer approach? Is it because you've been linking and the accountability has to be through the formative years you you're there, or how did you develop the sort of values that you talk about now and their customers' experience?

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Yeah, I take that back to my Project Telecom days, um, to be quite honest, because that's where the idea of Blue Cube sort of you know was was born from. When I was at Project Telecom, they gave customers back then a better option again by directing a network, they gave them a better service, they kind of had banners up in the customer service area, love them, hug them, squeezing was the sort of uh uh sort of the tagline really that everyone could have worked to. And and professionalism, you know, that's what there were the two things that Project Telecom offered, like good service and professionalism, professionalism, easy for me to say, and that's what we try and instill into the team at Blue Cube, that's what we insist on, if I'm honest with you. So we have four values that we're gonna work to, and professionalism is the first one on the list. Um because I think it's really important to you know to represent the company in the right way and do the right thing by the customer. So I think in you know, I talk about professionalism, it's about integrity, really. It's like, you know, if you say you're gonna do something, do it, then do it. You know, don't overpromise, underpromise and over-deliver. That's what I tell a team, you know, whether it's part of the management meeting or it's something in the support team, it's like, you know, underpromise, over-deliver. People will remember you for that. You know, if you if you say you're gonna do something by Friday and it gets done on Monday, you failed them.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

So how how does it make you feel then in terms of so uh uh funnily enough, our first ever guest, Mr. Johnny Ray, was um featured as the industry expert on some of the the recent news things. Um I call it expose, I suppose, on the the practice on this uh hosted voice selling. So I think there was something the other week where you've got um seven-year contracts, kit leased, and I think there's a care home, um, which is a publicly available you know story where they're paying, I think, four or five hundred pounds a month for you know a few phone lines, I don't not a lease line, kind of broadband, and the potentially um at risk of of uh defaulting. What what what's your sort of view on that in terms of the industry that you've grown up in and that you love, your values, and then there's these sort of stories that seem to be they've certainly increased, I would say. I don't know what you think, probably they've always been there, don't get me wrong, but the the publicity certainly the last year, year and a half seems to have brought these more I think the spotlight's on them a little bit more at the moment, which is a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

Um, my my view is quite strong on this. Um, and I guess that's where I'm a bit a bit of a chip off the old block. My dad was very passionate about campaigning in football, about fairness, about the money filtering down from the top and through to the lower leagues, and this is my be in my bonnet about um about being fair to people in in you know in what in our industry. So, yeah, there are people miss selling out there, you know, they're saying they're representing BT when they make the appointment. It turns out obviously when the salesperson turns up, they're not from BT, but they they get around that by saying we're here to update your technology, and then you know they'll tell them they'll sell them a two-year, you know, lease purchase uh agreement, and it turns out it's a seven-year lease rental agreement, and it's just dishonest, it's miss selling, you know. And and it's and it's happening on a a big scale. There are some big comp I won't name names, so you know, we'll do that. But there are some big companies out there that have been getting away with it for a long time. Um and you know, it's it's not right, and uh Ofcom don't seem to want to own it. They sort of say, well, it's a it's a lease agreement, it's not a telecoms agreement, so therefore it's not us. So I don't think anybody's really governing that space, you know, and it but what it's doing is it's giving a bad name to the industry, you know, and it's and it's leaving a lot of people out of pocket and feeling missold too, which they have been, and feeling hard done by, and they're thinking, well, you know, telecoms dealers are are crooks. I go to industry events, you know, a couple of times a year, I could go to them every week if I wanted to, because the there's always something on, but I go to two a year um and I see old friends from the industry and it's full of good people, our industry, but there are a few bad eggs bringing it down, you know, and and they've been allowed to do it. And we had a local competitor kind of come up against um BlueCube a few years ago, and they came after our staff first of all, and then our customers, and they weren't very successful on either count. But then, you know, we started hearing horror stories really about how they operate, and it's just you know, I just don't think they should be allowed to kind of carry on doing what they're doing unchallenged, and that seems to be what they're doing. But what of course what they're doing is they're getting all the money up front for these deals, you know, seven-year uh lease agreements.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Substantial amounts they can get in there, sixty, seven, hundred grand, you know, up front.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

Yeah. And they've got to support that customer, then they've got to provide the equipment, that's one thing, so they'll do that at the outset, but then they've got to provide the infrastructure to support that customer for another seven years, you know. And if they're spending all the money on you know, bright lamps. Lamborghinis and yeah. Lamborghinis, yeah, and uh and bad suits, which most of them are doing, then you know it's not good, it's not good, it doesn't add up. And I'm sure they'll disappear into the night at some point and um and probably get away with it. But I think it's it's good to call it out because I think it's bad.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

No, I think um it's a it's a really unique one where the publicity is really starting to to increase on it, and obviously BBC have got involved in certain things. Um when you look at sort of what the industry can do, how we can do, you know, is it a partly education piece for for customers to be aware of these things in terms of end user customer? Is it a case of us as a business community, if you like, as as resellers and wholesalers to to hold each other to account ethically a little bit in terms of you know, we know we compete with each other, um, may the best person win, you know, all that kind of stuff, but do it the the way that you can look yourself in the mirror, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Yeah, I I you know look, I've been in this industry for 20 something years now, and you can make a living and be honest at the same time, you know. Yeah, but you are not gonna have to tell lies, you know, you can you can make money and and run a good clean business, and I think that's what we should be putting pressure on people in our in our industry to do. But it's not down to us as independent businesses to do that. I mean as a as a community, then we we can you know we can look down our noses on the guys that are doing it. It needs some regulation, yeah. And I think that's what the BBC are trying to get is regulation in the industry because and because it falls into that grey area of you know of who owns it and you know Ofcom own an awful lot in terms of um you know their roles and ombudsman. But so I guess if they can say, well that's not us, then I I sort of don't blame them really. But somebody needs to be keeping an eye on that and needs to bring these companies to account because you know if if they go if they do disappear, you know, there's some big organisations out there that are gonna leave a lot of people high and dry if they do sort of disappear into the night.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

No, I think um if nothing else, I mean you're right, it's it's difficult where businesses to police something, but with a regulatory body, I mean we've seen it in um in vehicle leasing and stuff like that that it's coming through now. It's there's probably an opportunity potentially for uh a regulatory approach to support this practice and prevent businesses being put in this situation. But you know, I think as well, you know, it's my personal view, maybe slightly unpopular, but I would always encourage any business looking at um communication purchases and things like that. If you're not sure on anything, always get the check uh the contract checked through, read the contract. And I know yourself, um you would be happy if a business said, Look, Paul, potentially I'm not going to use you guys in this case. What do you think of this contract? You'd say, right, well, that's great. Watch that, that means seven years, it's not five years, they've scribbled out, you know, those sort of things. So it's a it's a hot topic, and I think it's one that I would hope as well, from a channel perspective, we see at events more where it's being brought up into the open, and I think people like Johnny and the BBC, etc. uh talking about it, and obviously you talking um so well about it will be quite interesting to see if things change.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

Yeah, yeah, you'd hope so. You'd hope so. And I got a lot of sympathy for these people that you know that haven't read the small print properly. I mean, it is something you should do when you're signing something uh important or anything really, you've got to you've got to read what you're signing. But you know, when somebody dumps a an agreement in front of you that's 25 pages long, you know, there are probably few people that are gonna sit there and go through it with a microscope and make sure that what they're signing is kosher.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

You know, when you talked about being awake at night sometimes with not not because you're thinking, oh I've done too many seven-year contracts for vehicle that obviously you guys have a million miles from that. But does it because you are so synonymous with your area, Lincoln? And I know you you're kind of in London as well now and and all over to the UK, but synonymously Lincoln and you've got this sort of noise where this sort of practice is going on, it must add a lot of pressure being within the city where you live, grew up, all that stuff, that your reputation as a business is so important. And you know, I've I've got friends who run businesses in um I mean, Lincoln's an amazing place, but there's not loads of other cities with it on your doorstep where you could go out of Lincoln, we're gonna move from Lincoln and gonna target this area. It must add a lot of pressure that a lot of these businesses, I'm sure they're probably your friends after you know running a business for 17 years. Yeah, that how would you deal with that element of it?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

Yeah, I mean, we're quite isolated in Lincoln because as you say, there's not a lot around it, this hole, but that's the other side of the you know the Humber estuary, and there's quite a divide that that little bit of estuary there. And um there's Nottingham and Nottingham's Nottingham people like to buy from Nottingham people, you know, you know how it is. So yeah, you have to start on your home patch, and you've got to make it you know, create the right impression and create the right reputation. Um, and then over the years we started picking up customers all over the UK because our marketing was mainly digital marketing and we're delivering cloud solutions, which meant we didn't have to be on the doorstep to to manage them. But we've got obviously our our you know sort of home patches where we try and you know focus all our sort of energies for marketing and um and keeping a reputation good. And I try not to worry too much about what everyone else is doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:16

To take it personally sometimes, if there's a even if it's not for a fault of of BlueCube, for example, a digger goes through the fibre connection for one of your customers in Lincoln and they're without connectivity. Are you one of those owners that we need to sort this with the customer? What can we do? Let's think outside the box, the doubt, or is it look, these things happen, you know, all the best.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:38

No, I'll I'll still, you know, there's an issue.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:40

I've looked anyone listening to this. I can see Paul's face, and he's like, No, I would be getting the 4G router in my car and everybody driving around, or I'd send one of the team around.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:48

Well, we do try and go the extra mile, you know, in in those scenarios. And I've m most fuckers are great, you know, they understand that these things are gonna happen occasionally. Now there will be a ticker go through a fiber line in the ground and cut the rent of it out, and it's not our fault, but you also you know, you equally get the occasional pain in the backside that just you know wants to shout at somebody, and um and you've got to own that really, you know, that you're their provider. So you know we just try and deal with it as as quickly as we can and use the escalation pass that we've built up over the years to make these things get fixed quicker.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

On that, the sort of itch, because um is there another itch now you're at MSP? Is there something else you're kind of a bit interested in as a business, or is this you now or there's always an itch. There's always an itch, yeah. There's always I mean, you know any any sort of acquisitions that we can do as a as a bit of a uh Yeah, I've got acquisition itches and I've got uh new markets that I want to look at.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

Um, you know, and I'm quite impatient, as most of my team will tell you. Uh the management team I work with closely, I've got I've always got ideas, and it's then that people around me try and sort of rein it in a little bit really and say, Okay, well look, we can't do everything at once, so let's Will you ever be the current business model? We've still got a lot of you know automation to put in place to make things slicker, but will you ever be happy or will you always want more? Well, I'm I'm I'm very happy. Yeah. Uh I don't I don't mean I'm not saying you're not happy person, but we'd be happy with what I've got in front of you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

Will you ever be able to say we're done now? Let's just crack on, it's keep it just ticking along. You're probably not. Probably not, if I'm honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:29

Um obviously we're all building towards something, and whether it's you know eventual exit or you you know you just take a step back and you stay in the business, you know, but you're there less often. Uh you know, I I haven't got a clear plan about where I'm going. It's growth moving forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:49

Always move forwards.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:50

I think if you're not growing, you know, then you start to stagnate and standards start to slip. And so, you know, I think and also it's it's it's it's not exciting, is it? If you if you're always trying to move forward and grow, it's just keeps it exciting, it keeps the team focused, and we're very um transparent about our growth plans internally, so everyone knows what the plan is for the the next 12 months, and they all uh are targeted against that or they're all bonused against that, whatever role they're in. So we've all got like one common goal that we're all trying to reach, and if we get there every year, then everybody enjoys the benefits of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:26

So another 500 pound suit for yourself. You should put that in the um in the in the the office, you know, like at a mannequin.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:34

Yeah, one of those glass cases like football shoes. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

So what was the last thing that kept you up at night then, work-wise? That's a good question. Um can't say coming on here, by the way. That'll just be an easy one.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

Actually, it probably was. Um there's nothing that really keeps me awake at night. I mean, you know, we we've we've always got focuses, you know, of areas for improvement, and the thing keep me awake at night at the minute is is we don't want to get behind the curve on anything. Um we haven't really got our AI sort of strategy worked out yet. We we're getting there, um, and we are gonna make, you know, ourselves sort of customer zero and make it all work properly internally before we start trying to monetize it. Um but I know there are, you know, there are people out there that are that are already way ahead of us, so we need to catch up. And I I never want to be in a position where I'm playing catch-up, you know. That's why we made the transition to MSP when we did, because people have already started doing it and there's still people that are thinking about doing it. And the ones that I speak to, I'm just saying, look, stop thinking about it, just do it because unfortunately, voices, you know, the margins are dwindling and the usage is dwindling, and you know, there's that if you're just doing voice, yeah. I don't think I don't think you've got a future just doing voice alone. And probably people out there have listened to this thinking, Well do you know? But that's my opinion. I think you've got to do more. So um but yeah, nothing's really keeping me awake at night, to be honest. I still I still love what I do. Lincoln City's home farm.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

Yeah, well that is that is keeping me awake at night, yeah. So obviously you now 17 and a half years in a lot of stuff planned in the future, but this is the key question. If you uh if I put you on a desert island, what three things would you have to take with you? I'm allowed connectivity out there. I'll tell you what, I I'll s only if I can sell you the connectivity to get to a desert island with it, I might make some commission then.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:40

So I'll take an iPad to watch the Lincoln games on uh on a Saturday and a Tuesday. Um because I you know football's been part of my my sort of childhood and growth.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:52

Well you've got technology and football in one there, so that's like two for one as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

Oh yeah, I guess, yeah, that's always thinking outside the box. I'd take um I'll be greedy here, so I'll just take an album with me, shall I? And I'd probably take album. Well I like a lot of different drummers and music, but New Order have always been the sort of band that I've uh that I love since I was about 15, 16.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:20

Which album?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:22

I I'll cheat and I'll take um I'll take substance so I'll get the best of then. So I'll take that album out.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:28

Can't go wrong with a best of.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:31

And I've got one more, haven't I? I'll probably take a coffee machine as well, because I love coffee.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:35

Drink too much of it, but iPad album coffee machine. It's not gonna be so bad, is it? So that you'll be alright. I mean, you know, hopefully you you your wife's not watching this or listening to it. Why don't you take me? Just for anyone, just just for Emma listening, should be loud to people.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

You should be saying you'd be taking a beer fridge, not a coffee machine or the drink.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:55

Yeah, yeah, be a castaway on uh on uh sponsored by Carling. But no, I I've really enjoyed um it absolutely flies, but I've I mean to be in a privileged position to sit opposite someone that's kind of could have gone into agriculture, decided not for them, I'm gonna go and live in London, and then coincidentally sell advertising in agriculture to start with is amazing. And that journey and the j the sort of boiler room sales discipline that you kind of picked up during that period, um, navigating into a smaller business where you've developed the sort of values that Blue Cube have now, going through the acquisition into a big corporate that I'm gonna call it the Ream's itch, the reams itch where you kind of want to do a little bit want more, starting your own business, bailiffs within the first few years as a dealer, kind of starting from from nothing and in your home really to where you are now is pretty impressive. And I know a lot of businesses watching this will will have interest in going from an ISP to an MSP, dealing with how how how you even dealt with COVID, all these different things. Um it's been an absolute pleasure and an absolute credit to your to your family as well. So thank you very much for your time. Pleasure, Will. Really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:16

We enjoyed it. And I but the only thing I would say is for anybody thinking about starting a business and starting a career in whatever industry they're they're interested in, is just put yourself out there and get outside of your your comfort zone. Because that's definitely where all the good stuff happens. I know it's an old cliche, but it's true, you know. If you put yourself out there, then good things happen. You meet a guy in a restaurant that's working there as well, and he says, Oh, that'll come in handy, you can probably get a job at my place, you know. And good things happen, just put yourself out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:44

100%. And I I think you know, you're you're you're active on on LinkedIn and things like that. And I would definitely have Paul as a as a business contact to to get ideas, advice from um who knows he might even buy your business as well in the future. So thank you so much, sir. It's been a pleasure. Pleasure. Thanks, Will. Cheers, sir. That flu. I am such a fan of Mr. Reams, even though he's a Lincoln City supporter, I will not hold that against him. It's really interesting to talk through with a business owner how they have that itch, that desire to always keep pushing the boundaries and to take risks and to challenge themselves. Starting a business at home, acquiring businesses, growing your own business in Lincoln, stretching into London, moving from an ISP model to an MSP, but at the same time anchoring with strong core values in terms of honesty and integrity, really fascinating on his views regarding what we're seeing in the press a lot with um the sort of miss telling in the voice area. So that was fascinating and something definitely I'll be keeping an eye on. I'd encourage you if you're business owner, thinking of business, Paul is a fantastic guy and always open to have a chat. You may see him at events or you may be able to reach out to him on LinkedIn. I'm sure he'll take the time to give you a few bits of advice. Um, you can catch up with this episode on Spotify, YouTube, every forum that we're on currently. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you all for watching and listening. Take care. Bye.