Chewing the Channel: In conversation with Raza Baloch

In this episode, Will sits down with Raza Baloch to explore a deeply personal and thought-provoking journey, from growing up with a Pakistani heritage in 1980's Britain through to building a successful career in the telecoms industry.

We dive into his early career in high-pressure telecoms recruitment, where a relentless work ethic was forged in “boiler room” environments, and how those experiences shaped his leadership style today. From international business studies in France to operating across global markets, Raza reflects on the influences that defined his path.

The conversation doesn’t shy away from difficult topics. Raza opens up about race in the workplace, the challenges around representation. 

Alongside personal insight, the episode explores major industry themes, from channel strategy and partner ecosystems to the growing role of consolidation across the altnet landscape.

An honest, insightful and challenging discussion on identity, ambition, and the realities of building a career in telecoms today.

Website: www.elevate.uk/wholesale

LinkedIn: Will Goodall

Phone: 0330 058 9530

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hello everyone, welcome to uh latest episode of Chewing the Channel. I am proper excited in my northern accent to be with and I called him this before and he was really unhappy, but it's true, Channel Royalty, Razavalak, and I want to get his surname wrong because I might get in trouble. Um, he is sitting in front of me today on Chewing the Channel. We're gonna go through his career, his view on the market, even his formative years, certainly maybe a parent hundreding from a from a farm to a city to start a new life, kind of quite interesting. And we'll also have a little bit of uh I'll try and extract a bit of information about the the market. So hopefully you enjoy any questions at all, though, always reach out. So on to the show. I'll tell you what, they say don't sit opposite royalty in channel, and uh I can see why the the intimidation factor is high. So likewise, mate. Well, it's probably just because I've not showered. So I am made up with this one because we've we've um we've known each other for I think three three and a bit years, pretty much, since your your time at where you are now, Virgin, Media Business Whole. So you came in to transform that area, and I think the transformation had already started because I'd left, so things naturally started to improve. Um, but we've kind of crossed paths in in various guises. You've you've played a key role in in helping us, but before all this kind of image now, I did a little bit of research, and I've kind of preempted it before, and you were a bit surprised. But you this lad from London went to the most prestigious, and and for anyone watching, listening, I said prestigious grammar school in London, as I was quick to correct me and say in the UK, um, but not a private school, it's tests, exam, quite tough to get into, I imagine grammar school, and then from there, probably less hard to get into Coventry University. So there's an interesting thread there that I want to explore. But how does I mean, growing up, London boy? Yeah, born and raised, Tottenham fan, yeah, up the spurs, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Not at the moment though, yeah. We've been really, really bad.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Hopefully, that if we people watch this next year, you might be within the league. So grew up in in London then. So what was what's that like? What would your parents do? Is it kind of because the reason I asked that question is a lot of the leaders we've had on, parents have have played key roles in terms of either work ethic or grandparents, where there was a certain figure that's pushed either literally pushed their child along, or they've pushed through being uh someone that the looked up to and gone, I want to aspire to that. So I'm kind of curious in terms of those kind of formative teenage years, what was it what was it like in the Balak household?

SPEAKER_01 3:14

That's an interesting one that sound of uh two immigrants, Pakistani immigrants. Um I'm born and raised in London. They looked at it. They weren't really they they they came over, so my dad came over in the 60s um and it was a really random one, right? So so I won't go through the whole massive detail around it. It's actually an amazing story of how he got to London in the first place. He owned his his family owned a farm in Pakistan. He grew up, everyone just worked on the farm, and he kind of aspired to do more. Um and so he sort of ran away and and took himself off to the city and went to school. He just did it in all in of his own volition. On his own? On his own, just literally just upped and went. How old will he have been with that? He it would have been like 12, 13, something like that. He just wanted to do better than just be on a farm. So he took himself away and and he went to school, and uh it so happens that the head teacher of the school saw something in him, and he did really well, and from there he kind of wanted more and he moved to the UK. But the head teacher of the school was the father of my mother. So it's it was like so. My dad came to the UK and and he was starting to live a life in the UK, and then and then had an a an arranged marriage with my mother. Who was the most unromantic who was the daughter of the head teacher, and it's it was like the most unromantic story you could possibly imagine. They got married on the phone, they'd never met each other, and bearing in mind this is in the So he's in London, she's still in she's still in Pakistan. Yeah, they got married on the phone, they had a photo, they had a passport photo of each other, and that's all they knew of each other. So the first time they met as man and wife was when she touched down in Heathrow, and he'd kind of catfished her a bit as well, because it's it's he's he's 13 years older than she is. So she's got this passport photo, and she's looking at this photo and she's coming out at arrivals and she's looking for this. I've been missold here, and she's then sees this 13-year-old older version of this photo, and that was it, and that and that's there's no going back there, is there? You can't go. Well, yeah, and look, I've got I've got family who've had arranged marriages, and it's all gone very peatong, and so and they have separated, divorced, but my my folks are still together. But growing up in London, I I think it's it's it's it's a really difficult one to answer because I think in the 80s, I don't think you can c I don't think you can actually overstate how difficult it is growing up in the 80s as a person of colour. That's a really it was a really hard thing to do, it really is. And don't like I said, I don't I probably can't even put it into words as to how difficult that was. But when you compound that with, you know, I've got family, I've got my parents who came over here for all the best intentions of the world, but they don't really understand the full kind of you know workings of the culture in the UK and stuff, and they tried their level best too, but you know, that they didn't grow up here themselves, so it was tough, it was actually a really difficult one. But classically, I think with with any Asian of any description, whether it be South Asian, Southeast Asian, I think you know that their parents they always have pushy parents when it comes to education, um, and mine weren't weren't any different, they were exactly the same, especially if your dad's decided to make a walk from being in the countryside to the city to start school there.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

I'm assuming he was kind of if he's like that himself, it's right, you're going to school, you're gonna stay in, you're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

But they didn't handle it the right way at all. I mean, I don't think any parent in the 80s probably handled their kids in the right way, and you know, certainly in comparison to how we feel that we should be working with our kids to to help them develop and all of that good stuff. Then when you compound that with the fact that there's this kind of cultural strange divide, it's it was a it's a bit weird because you never quite felt like you belonged anywhere, really, because there was so much racism in the 80s as well, and you know, it was and I hate this phrase, but it was kind of what I call acceptable racism.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

If you look at the TV programmes and you know, you can look at only fools and horses, which is a you know British royalty sitcom.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

But some of the jokes when you I mean you look back now, yeah. I mean, you know, it ain't half hot mum and stuff like that. Programs like that were totally acceptable, but I mean it was not that kind of acceptable, it was a lot more overt. Yeah, you know, the so I I guess growing up, you're trying to constantly trying to blend, and my kids still take the Mickey out of me now, actually, funnily enough, because every time I get in a cab, they go, You use your cab voice. And and and as funny as it is, it's it's it's it's it the the deep-rooted reason behind that is almost you're kind of almost over the top trying to show someone that I am a Londoner or I am from the UK, so you kind of almost the the cab voice is right, mate. Like almost to say, I'm you know, I'm one of you straight away. And and that was that stayed with me for a really long time as well. This whole trying to blend, and and it wasn't dismissive of my ethnicity or background, but it was it was almost you know trying to say, Look, I I'm one of you as well. It's really difficult. So as a as I you know, as a kid, I suppose hearing like you know, I hate the P word, but you're all right. Now that is an awful statement to make, but at the time, as a kid, I almost saw that as a win. It's giving you that validation, yeah. But no, but I saw it as a woman, I saw it as a win. I saw it as a win because it was almost a case of right, well, I've I've chipped away there. So someone who has this overall vibe of I hate you all generically, but you're alright. As awful as that is, I saw that as a win. Now I look back at that now and think that's absolutely awful. So that whole blend thing has been there, trying to blend in constantly, has been there right up until COVID, funnily enough. And the Black Lives Matter thing was massive. Now I'm not black, but but the the whole movement around the Black Lives Matter for me was such a massive turning point personally, that it was suddenly a case of kind of going, you know what, I I am proud of what I am. Do you know what's and I don't want to blend anymore, I want to be different, I want to, you know, show who I am, my my my you know, everything about who I am, ethnicity, authenticity, you know, everything is it it it had such a massively profound effect on me that that movement.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

One of the things that kind of spring to mind though when you say that is COVID was five, six years ago. Six. So you know, throughout your kind of formative years, um grammar school, spilling your drinks, don't worry. Uh Coventry University, uh, which we are definitely not avoiding. Absolutely think of. And then working in various because kind of cards on the table. One of the things I've I've noticed when I I actually did more research on you than I normally do, which is not a huge compliment because I don't really do do those things. You've kind of worked for tech companies in London, and you've kind of fluidly moved from and you've also run your own business, but you've also done the tech companies. There seem to be a theme of um a tech company with 100 to 200 people, then national company America, then smaller company, then big national company, and always kind of in those various roles: business development, sales director, different forms of channel, different forms of direct sales, and throughout that journey, kind of what you're saying is you you've had that sort of blend approach a little bit in terms of that environment. Because I imagine, I mean, I can't walk in your shoes in terms of London in the 80s, but I think it's important we always talk about these things because I guarantee there will be business owners, people um in the channel who will listen to what you're saying and go bloody hell, yeah. I we I had um Crystal Gale on, whose mum was um from the Windrush generation and worked loads of jobs, and the work ethic that that drove in her was immense, but she kind of doesn't you know went through some some stuff, and some people talk about it, other people will say it wasn't great in the 60s when I came over, but now here I am, blah blah blah. So kind of when you're in that environment on the on the education side and you're in a prestigious school with your parents, is it pretty much home work homework, work, work, work, you're gonna progress, you're gonna progress, you're gonna progress, and then outside you're kind of trying to they they they were not the reason behind any kind of success, and that that sounds like an awful thing to say, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:15

But actually, I rebelled. You're gonna get to the Coventry University bit. I mean I didn't know. I rebelled, I just I just you know, I just I went totally the wrong way for a little while because they pushed so hard irrationally. I had an older brother who who went to Oxford, um, and it was always being compared to him, and you're kind of like, you know what, with different people, you can't just continually compare. But academics was just you know the be-all and end all of everything in my parents' eyes. So you get to a point where you're just never gonna be able to get to that level. So you know, you just you you just you just form this new persona and just go, right, I'm gonna rebel, I'm gonna go totally the other way. So they were not the driving force really behind me having this driving force that I have now, unfortunately. And I don't mean in disrespect to my parents, I love them both dearly, but I had a quite a strained relationship with my dad, certainly, growing up. Um and I think I think going into these different firms that you're talking about kind of always seeking in a in a in a leader that that father figure that I probably wished I had when I was younger. And so I've latched onto it, I latched onto a couple of them, and then it was almost you know, the driver for me, funnily enough, was almost I want to prove to this leader kind of that I'm really that I'm good at what I do, which which was derived from that I guess from you know that that growing up with the parents that you're trying to you know trying to do something right by them.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

They're an example of of um an aspiration that that you see as a better fit. Because I'm I'm curious in terms of the the sort of relationship ability, as shit as kind of growing up in that environment is because you're adept to lending. Did you find that those sort of skills that you'd kind of had to wear as armour, if you like, could then be used in business environments where you're thrown into an environment where there's a group of people from you know different industries, different sectors, and you're you're needing to network and and um either people work for you to try and get the best out of them, people above you. Were those sort of skills not that they were intentionally developed for that, but did you find yourself drawing on those as you kind of progressed in that?

SPEAKER_01 14:44

I think you had just have an appreciation for different cultures um uh everything, pretty much everything I've ever done professionally has always been in the international arena, and I loved it for that reason as well, I think, because you do is that more diverse?

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Because I mean, one of the things in the UK is it is not the most diverse of channels. I know we've got women in um channel movements and we've got you know various kind of focuses, but realistically, if you go to an award ceremony, you're gonna see 85% and 95% white middle-aged men, yeah, grey hair, yeah, um called Tim, and and that's that's kind of our world, whereas internationally you might be dealing with carriers in Brazil, Pakistan, India, Dubai. Absolutely. Was that conscious, or was that during your kind of journey into there where people were kind of looking at you going, you are not Will Godur, for want of a better description, whose fits this mold of what we think, or was that just kind of organically happening for you?

SPEAKER_01 15:52

On the international front, uh well, so my degree was actually European business, um, so it was engineering management, but it was it was all with French. Um I lived in France for a year as part of the degree week, um and I took a great interest in that actually, and I loved it. I absolutely loved that year abroad, it still stays with me now, and it's been some 30 odd years. Where did you stay in France? So I was in Lyon, which is in the southeast of a hotel or with a family. No, no, no, in student halls. So I went to uni. Just parachuted in. Yeah, so it was part of the course. So your first year, second year at uni in the UK, third year was at uni in in France. Didn't really go to uni very much, got to say. Had a great time though, lived in France, it was amazing, it was just the immersive everything, you know. Just through osmosis, you walk down the street, you go to the supermarket, you've got the TV on in the background, whatever it may be, you're just listening to French constantly. And they always said, Um, you'll have the dream, and you're like, What does that mean? What? And it was like, you'll see. And so you kind of get there and you're all constantly translating in your brain. But one day you wake up, it was probably about two months into living there, and you woke up and knew what they meant because it was like I'd had a dream fully in French, and at that point, that was the moment where suddenly you don't have to translate in your head anymore, and and everything you're saying is just coming out in French, and you're understanding, and that little kind of extra little bit of compute going on in your brain doesn't exist, and it is suddenly really natural, and I loved it, it was such an amazing experience.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Um Elliot Moore, our uh CO at uh, he went to he did exactly the same thing, part of his university, he went to a different country, and kind of it's a little bit sink or swim where you've kind of you've you've you've described it, and I'll sound cheesy here, but beautifully, but the reality is it you know, learning an international language is not a case of if you just stand in this area for three months in I don't know, Budapest, you will suddenly be fluent in Romanian. There is a lot of putting yourself out there and trying you know, all these this the journey to to fluency, um, and again, I suppose that's giving you that resilience, but it's on your terms resilience if you like. You're going to a different country and you're you're kind of throwing yourself in. Not many students would would do that. I would probably last two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Uh do you know what, mate? I would recommend it to absolutely anyone. And and the easy option is go to the States, go to Australia because they speak English.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Could you speak French that well before you went?

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Well, so I did it for GCSE, did it for A level, did it for two years at degree level, then went and lived there, and all of that kind of you know built up towards when you go there. So I I I could speak, but certainly when I came back, it it was definitely fluent when I came back, and and it was great, and it's kind of stuck with me now. I mean, I've just come back from a ski trip literally last week in France. I go every year, we go to Marrake. We saw him, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

He was he was he was sat next to us, yeah, yeah. He doesn't go on holiday to the places I go, to be Catholic. So I've not seen him in Majorca in a in a South Catering apartment, but yeah, you know, but I try and speak French as much as humanly possible.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

I still do now. I I won't let it go. Um, Marrakesh, they speak French as their second language there. We go there quite often. Um, go to France, go skiing, speaking French. They'll you know, and you're speaking French, they'll speak back to you in English. And I will persist. Because why? I mean, you just if you know, I've got to keep going. So you so you speak French back to them, and then they kind of relent and then they speak to you in French, and then they go, okay, no, that's great, you know, you get the acceptance, and then you can. And the first couple of days is awful because you you're starting to try to remember it all again, but by the end of the week, it's totally back again. It was great, and and it's what it's a skill set that I I definitely don't want to lose. But going back to your original point around the international piece, I suppose that was the catalyst for me. And then actually, funnily enough, my first foray in the telco world, I worked in telecoms recruitment when I first always been in in in telecoms of some description, but it was telecoms recruitment for five years, and that's for after university, after university, as a graduate. I went into recruitment, um, and it just so happened to be telco recruitment.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

I didn't choose it, it's like anyone who and are we talking in London sort of pinstripe suit, cash as king, recruiter. Yeah, you're gonna make this a proper boilerroom.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

It was a proper boiler room environment. In fact, there is a 1990s film called The Boiler Room, which is like the 90s version of Wolf of Wall Street, I guess. Ben Affleck's in it. There's a couple of there's a couple of famous guys like Finn Diesel and stuff, but it's real early career type stuff. Um, and it's about uh uh it's about a boiler room sales environment. The right the writers of that worked for the firm that I worked for. Um, it was a US firm. Um, and the the right the writers left and they they wrote this story based on obviously their own experience in this recruitment firm, and then wrote this story about you know a trading firm. Um, and there's so many funny little things within that film that were true in my life at that time. So when you cut your first deal, someone would come over with a pair of scissors and cut your tie. And and that's in it's in the film, and there was stuff like that, there's those little bits that you could you could see, but it was such a boiler and well, we would wake up, we'd have to be in the office for 7, 7:30 every morning to role play. Every every day, and you'd be doing role plays, and then you'd get on the phones for quarter past eight, half past eight every morning because the people that you wanted to speak to you could get an opportunity with them on their way to work, and you very rarely left before six o'clock. In fact, you probably never left before six o'clock, so your days were sort of twelve hour days, and then they would call what they said a red zone. So if it was contract recruitment and someone needed a contractor. within the week, the guarantee of this recruitment firm was we will get you that contractor, doesn't matter, we will just get that person for you. So you call a red zone, which means the entire office gets onto finding that person. And they do you know chuck a pizza at you and stuff. And you very often you'd be there till sort of you know eight, nine, ten o'clock sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

See, because these these boiler room things because I I uh I spoke to there's a few guests we've had who worked at Carphone Warehouse back in the day or Caldwell Group and things like that and there it seems to me and I don't know what your opinion is kind of coming through that background you kind of go there's literally left or right you either leave quite soon or you you stay it it's the best experience ever but you would never run a business that way or go back to it but it gives you the fundamentals of work ethic skill set sales hunger blah blah blah blah yeah and probably very few people I imagine when you join Joy Review that still stayed but for you to do five years what what kind of drove you there?

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Is it the the high risk the rewards are great but also there's obviously people that they're going listen will you failed this month you're out versus well done as you've smashed it this month here's this and you know praise and promotion and progression and all those sort of things that come with it I didn't it was that naivety really I didn't know any better I I just assumed everyone worked seven till seven if I'm honest with you and it didn't know any different I'd just come out of university it never worked no one in the ghost ghost finishes at seven though so I've assumed there's a strong social element it was crazy well there was there was a good social element to it but yeah it was it I wouldn't go back but it but I tell you what it it definitely gave me those things that you were asking before you know where did you get your drive it it it's little things like that and don't get me wrong I don't agree with the way in which they operated necessarily but some of those values that they instilled even then in my formative professional years have still stuck with me now that work ethic that kind of you know you're not forced to work seven till seven but I know that if I need to I will you kind of call your own red zone if you want to you know you go right okay this needs to get done so you get it done and that's what there's there's some bits in there definitely that have just stuck with me throughout yeah there's often a lot of strong sales methodology behind these things it's just sometimes the I guess for people looking back at it now as with most things there's an intimidatory aspect to it that oh yeah you couldn't you couldn't get away with as they say these days um I saw it as I mean it was there was some ridiculous things I mean you know someone would lose a deal pick up their monitor and throw it across the room and that was seen as oh no it's alright it's because he's he's passionate about his job and you're just like really like that's not passion that's just that's just pure aggression so those those bits I just did not I couldn't subscribe to then I still don't now you know those bits it it was it was a little bit crazy and also in the 90s selling in the 90s is again very different to selling now as we well know it was it was it was literally that kind of that boiler room type sales environment as well um so yeah and and going back to the ethnicity thing and I don't want to play the ethnic card constantly why do you say that what I don't want to play the ethnic card well I don't want to ethnicity cards yeah don't I it's it's a because it's the reason I asked that question is you know what we talk about is is is um individuals journeys and then views on the market and things like that to me to to most people it makes no it doesn't judge people as they are and I don't think it shouldn't do value or you should see it as well I've I've mentioned that I'm from Pakistan or not from born in London but parents from Pakistan and I've mentioned this three times and really I shouldn't mention it afar. Yeah do you know what to mean yeah I know uh yeah I I know exactly what you mean and it's actually really difficult for me to talk about in general anyway but because I don't want to be just seen as the guy who just you know that's it you know that's all it is because that it is a really strong part of me um but I also don't want to just constantly just you know defer back to big you know I let's put it this way I don't want to put any sort of blame on anything because oh it's it must have been because of the fact that I'm a person of colour I don't I don't want to be that guy right like I I don't want to put that my my dad once said to me they'll never accept you and I remember pushing back at the time just going listen you grew up in a different time it was the 60s in the in the UK when you came over that's not necessarily true.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

I actually think he had a point to a point but my point that I was making was that one of the guys in the office so I was in recruitment he'd said to me word of advice so on my first day don't hire anyone with darker skin than you that was his words of advice that was the office manager on my first day in my career that was the that was his friendly advice that he gave to me that's just you'd never get that now but sometimes though and I was talking to someone before because um and they were saying a lot of times people and it's probably why if you go to a lot of industry events in the channel and I'd encourage anyone recruiting I've definitely benefited from not recruiting exactly the same as you if that makes sense so and I think what what you're saying there is it's kind of um I mean that's disgusting for someone to say that but at the same time I guess the point I'm trying to say and it'd be interesting what people think you think is that still the case but not spoken about through someone saying I'm gonna hire another person who looks exactly like me I'll go if you're in an industry that's 95% white middle aged men with beards they're gonna approach recruitment that way be it ethnicity be it gender be it whatever that may be so it's almost like it's gone a bit under the ground and that's why I'm really you just had mass protests in Manchester over the course of the last couple of days. It's not going away and that's why because because I wasn't kind of in because I had a thought in my head because you're just being really open you said I can't mention it again then I'm thinking in my head buddy hell he's like done amazing things in his career and we want to talk on those not just not just see I'm kind of preempting it now but I think it's the the reason I think it's worth powering on this point is that there are so many people that watch this including my mum bless her who will listen and look and go do you know what like he's himself he's done this he's not afraid he doesn't give a shit about certain things he went to France he's progressed within different businesses he's he's not liked one job gone to another got into sales gone through the boiler room but he's talking in a way that I can relate to that kind of cuts through a lot of the time and I think these conversations are mind-altering a lot of the time for people to listen to and and you would probably find it awkward knowing you very awkward but you know a lot of people will go well you should be a a role model for it but then yeah but and I and I do assume that now I do assume that role because I do want people to kind of say okay look you know there's someone who looks like me who's actually done pretty well but the bit that I struggle with a little bit is I don't want people to see it at all.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

I want people to just go there's someone who's just good at what they do not despite or because of or whatever it's just the output of what I do should be the bit that we talk about. But but what happens inadvertently is you kind of go and you know and you've had also had challenges and I have and that's fine and that's acceptable but it's you see what I mean it's it's actually it's just like I said I find it I find it quite difficult. I will continue to talk about it by the way but I do find it quite difficult. I also find what I also find really difficult at the moment is I think you you touched on it before right so we talk about D E and I a lot in our industry now but whenever we talk about D E and I we are talking about gender equality and nobody talks about ethnic diversity at all and that and I don't shout out enough about it and probably because of you know I don't know you don't want to be seen as you know can constantly flying that card but it's a thing you know ethnic diversity is is something we should look at as well because like you said in in a sea of these execs that you you that that are in our industry they are all what my old boss used to call FWBs fat white old blokes. You're looking at middle I'm a I'm a middle age it wasn't directed to middle age bloke. But you know what I mean it's so so you know it's and and everyone talks about DNI and it's on the agenda constantly and everyone's going oh you know the DNI quote is amazing we've got 50 50 representation or 6040 representation and you're just like okay yeah but where's the colour in all of that? There is none. And that that for me is quite disappointing and it feels like we needed to do something from a gender point of view. Do you think 100% would be needed so I know we're kind of going a bit no I don't know I don't know I've said this to you before you know for me it's just I I don't want to be a quota I don't want to be I don't want to get a promotion just because of my skin tone I want to get promotion I want to do well because I've earned it and and similarly I want to I want a bunch of diverse people around me constantly as well right because it just you just get different things from different people like when I first turned up at Virgin actually funnily enough my entire team were white males and I needed to do something about that. Now here's here's the hypocrisy of all of that my team now are 6040 still in favour of males but there's no ethnic diversity in my own team so it's all well I you know I'm I'm a massive hypocrite myself.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Why is that and it's because I haven't found the right people I have not rebalanced that team just to fulfil a female quota I've rebalanced that team because I have just seen the people that I think are good at what they do and I've recruited them in I'm not trying to find females I'm not trying to find people of ethnic backgrounds I just haven't I just want to find good people and I've now redressed the balance by finding good people of both genders can I say both genders there are more than one gender but you know what I mean you know traditional both genders um no issue with me saying it's apologies I know exactly what you mean though because I think but it it's that openness and it and and throughout your recruitment in the in the in in the telco space have you always I guess been fed from your experiences where you've kind of looked past an individual and gone I'm just gonna hire someone exactly like me or exactly like what I've been told is the stereotype have you always kind of kind of purposefully looked past that I mean what at what point did that I don't look at it I don't see it.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

I'm I'm is it a bit like when you were learning French it just clicked in the I'm a big believer in a meritocracy they don't have to look like me they don't have to be me they just have to be good at what they do. That's it and if you know that could be anyone and it doesn't really matter that that for me I genuinely just I just I just want to get people that are good at what they do irrespective of now other people I know there is definitely an unconscious bias there. I'll give you an example so my middle name is Hussein which no one really knows. I know because he's done some stalking right so when I was applying for jobs way back I just wasn't getting any callbacks or anything for anything and a friend of mine said and he's he's he's Ghanaian background he said take your middle name off your C V because at the time you kind of you know had this whole thing around Saddam Hussein and there was there was obviously there is there is a subconscious unconscious bias there about it. And I'm not joking I took the middle name off and I don't look is it a coincidence I don't know suddenly I started to get calls and and I've taken it one step further as well with my kids right so my kids are Izzy and Ollie Isabel and Oliver right they're they're as English names as you can possibly get and the reason I did that was because I don't want them to have those same challenges that I have because I know I'm very good at what I do but if you just see a piece of paper in front of you and it says razabalock straight away there is an unconscious bias there around that you will have formed an opinion does that person have an accent does that person can that person you know you know talk and integrate with with society at large whatever it may be right there is whether you like it or not there is so Isabel and Oliver but I want them to still hang on to the fact that they are of Pakistani origin. So their middle names are Pakistani middle names there's Isabel Aisha and it's Oliver Samir and they and they they love that about it as well but but that this is this is kind of what I mean I'm not selling out I just want them to have that head start that I didn't have because I just don't want if someone says sees Oliver Ballock they're gonna go okay right yeah let's get him in without that judgment in a way that I have that judgment.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Yeah in terms of kind of that overarching view in the sort of industry and and changing it and things like that it can only be a good thing I see you on podiums and things like that that you push yourself out there. I mean is there a is there a point where you see change in that respect in the channel over time in terms of are you seeing it as compared to when you first entered although it was recruitment in this sector have you seen changes within that time? Not really if I'm honest not really I think on the international stage yeah probably um but as I say from from a UK point of view and I've only been in the channel actually funny enough three and a half years so thank you for calling me royalty after three and a half years a touch when when you said that when you said that to me though you're like I've only done the channel for three and a half years I was like F NL um because you you came in and one of the things I wanted to kind of touch on because I can't have you here without mentioning there's some recent announcements and things like that but a lot of businesses will be aware when you came into um Virgin they were a bit of a crossroads I'm sure they don't mind me saying that um and they've become quite um bloated with loads of partners service levels uh dropping to service four or five hundred partners and when I say a partner I mean someone that's buying from virgin wholesale selling to either another reseller or selling to an end user you kind of inherited this this situation and I think previously it was kind of with um a virgin approach or any corporate it's that's the way it is make the best of it whereas you became a little bit kind of loved by half but a little bit hated by half hated because there were partners that that you saw as we can't necessarily service them that they want to be serviced and it's better them working with someone else that's exactly so we will you know end that partnership so to speak it's not doesn't mean I don't run your business it was but obviously it's always a personal thing with these yeah so what prompted you to come in is it the fact you weren't from channel you weren't steeped in this is the way we always do it that you kind of looked at it and said if we keep doing this if we keep trying to make orange juice with lemons we're gonna keep getting lemon you know what talk us through that because that's probably one of the biggest moves in the industry that a big carrier's done because it does put you at a position of you know partners and I've seen it you see oh the virgin have got rid of you know how what made you look at that and go we're gonna be this is the way we're going and we're gonna hold course to this I had actually done a similar project before when I was at Global Crossing and that worked really well at that time.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

It's exactly the same we had way too many carrier partners you couldn't get across them all you were too reactive and as a consequence everyone suffers. Internally and externally everyone suffers. So I had done a project very similar to this already so that was so that was quite quite useful for this one. But it was exactly the same thing you know I always you know cheesily everyone says you know what's your 3060 90 day plan and you can just google it and present that whereas with mine probably even more cheesily but I I kind of came up with this concept of just saying well it's actually learn, assess implement rather than 30 60 90 don't put a time scale some of it's three six nine days some of it's 30 60 90 some might be 300 600 900 don't conform to the norm. Right. So in my first six months was that learning phase of you know where where do we stand what are we doing and and there was quite a lot that I felt that we weren't doing right at the time. What like everyone was just sat on their hands just waiting for orders to come in you know a a true sales organisation should be proactive on the front foot should be an extension of their partners or customers team which was your kind of that was my background introduction into sales yeah proactive absolutely and and and you I think you you can probably attest to this yourself in terms of the stuff that we do with you guys you know we are on the front foot with you always we're always there if you need assistance we can jump in if if you need if you don't have a certain skill set we can throw resource at you and we've done that to to a really really successful degree with you guys and long may that continue. But had we not done that project three and a half three years ago you you would have suffered or you would have gone elsewhere.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

But it's it's an interesting thing because I think if you look at the market now and we're kind of into the carrier world I know and you know a number of carriers now who have hundreds and hundreds of partners and a lot of resellers will relate to this they were with with a carrier in the early days and now they're not deemed as important but I don't think that's fair I don't think that's fair they're not everyone is important. No but I I would say in terms of their perception sorry they will be so I I know personally businesses who worked with um in the alternate sector in the early days and as that alternate's grown and and improved its wholesale element it's maybe partnered with inverted commas bigger resellers bigger wholesalers and that initial business is now feeling well I used to be able to go and speak to the CEO I used to be able to do these things and now it's just not possible and it's not due to the fact that that the larger business doesn't care about the the smaller one it just doesn't have the ability to service the volume of of partners and there's a there's a number now are looking at you know I'm not betraying stuff here but they are looking at going well we've got 600 partners we can't possibly provide great service to them so I do think kind of you we will see that move again and it won't be to the detriment of those businesses that that don't deal directly but it will happen again because that service level drops.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Think Jerry Maguire if you've ever seen that film. Show me the money well no not show me the money it's more you know he he wrote I say that to my boss he wrote this manifesto at the beginning which is why he got fired in the first place which is whereby he was saying too many customers means not enough love and therefore no one's getting any service and it's exactly the same thing. So you're right that there's there's a there's a school of thought that says just load them up keep loading them up because you know all of them are going to give you orders and you're gonna make money show me the money I disagree with that. And actually it was a massive it was a massive statement 75% of our base in terms of in terms of the populace there were some four five hundred odd partners 75% of those we said will not trade directly with us any longer. Now yes you're right throughout the industry if those who were in that 75% I'm sure were probably not my biggest fans but I think it was all done for the right reasons. I think they've probably changed not all of them because it's telecoms but we weren't servicing them the right way either and and so what happened as a consequence was the ones that we really lent into we really lent into them. So everyone now has a salesperson, has a commercial person, has a sales engineer, has a partner success manager. That's an account team dedicated to every partner that we work with now. Think about that like as you who are now in that in that twenty five percent that stayed you whereas before you just sort of you know you had someone who was sort of you know just taking orders and they weren't able to get back to you or anything.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

The channel that order taking sort of philosophy.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Yeah, I do. I I I I really do. You know, everyone calls them their tail.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Tail cut. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

You know, the the tail. And and and it's always this challenge around what do we do with the tail. Now for us, there are others, there are people in the market who have they've got automation down in a way that we just haven't. And so they are they can service the volume. Whereas for us, we are much better geared towards servicing more strategic opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

And and kind of the the the show the the kind of rehousing internally, if we look at kind of the market now, and I think like we had I had um spoke to Andy Wilson on here a few months ago.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Who basically told me that he completely plagiarised my my channel strategy probably he did he said to me look, I'll be honest with you, we've done exactly the same thing. Well, that's glad you said it because that was one of the examples I was talking about.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

But he I said to him, So the big thing at the moment in the industry is consolidation, and I can't have you on here without mentioning, and I know it's next fibre, but it's still bloody virgin. Um you could say it's not, but it is. It's Liberty Global, it's it's virgin. Um but we've we're starting to see the consolidation and the mergers, and the we saw a little bit of it last year, but it seems to have kicked off with a vengeance this year, yeah. Where I think there was the Freedom Fibre merger recently to kind of and and I was at an event with um with a founder, and he said there was a lot of alt nets kind of either looking to be sold or speaking to other altnets and saying if I join with you and you join with me and we put what we put our foppins together, we'll be more and the the investors will be happy and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

What's your take on where you see that market moving? Do you see a lot more of um the consolidation? Do you see ultimately a position where the market will be three with maybe a few regional alt nets? Um if I give you a crystal ball?

SPEAKER_01 46:20

I I I think consolidation is definitely starting and we're not. It would be a good business to acquire, definitely, yeah. But I mean there's uh there's there's an intention to acquire statements that has gone out, but that doesn't necessarily mean the acquisition has happened, right? Exactly. So we can't possibly speculate on that. Um great business though. Great business, absolutely. But why are they up for sale? So this goes back to my point, there will be further consolidation because all of these guys have had there there was a big bub, there was a bubble. Um, private equity came in through loads of money at these Altnets who went out and built lovely networks and couldn't monetize them fast enough, and so capital is now not quite as readily available, and the investors are starting to get a bit itchy, and so but you have got some amazing assets there. That's what you've got to remember still is these businesses are are putting themselves up for sale because they can't quite monetize what what they've got, but the that's not to say that the asset isn't amazing, and that's why consolidation will happen, because you're buying quite frankly an amazing asset that we haven't quite built ourselves yet. In in going back to the is there going to be a big three? No, no, no, no. I wouldn't say so. I mean, actually, if you think about like you I think you just said, you know, partnering, if you've got kind of Altnet A and B, and they both have phenomenal assets in different regions, and they consolidate with one another, then they become a f a pretty strong force covering different regions, and so can they kind of find the synergies and monetize that? So I think consolidation, yes, but is there gonna be a big three? No, it just doesn't make sense because it's you know everyone needs competition in the market, and so you've always been um a challenger, be it kind of formative years, kind of you've adapted to fit in.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

So if we go back to kind of school and uh background, and we've still not touched on coventry, that might be a bitter conversation, but you've you've you've been able to adapt into certain environments and to influence, but then kind of going through the boiler room environment and then various businesses and obviously running your own business and then back into corporate, but then doing the sort of strategic change which is kind of monumental and virgin in an environment where there is significant change happening now, not just structurally, but sales-wise, because I think a lot of you know, my personal opinion, I think a lot of alt nets and and I'm you know been part of it, part of it, but we're building something again. We've it's brilliant, it's brilliant, it does all this stuff, but we're monetizing, we're selling, routes to market, all these different things, and now obviously cash is is tougher to get. There is a there's a challenge in terms of the value, and so in terms of sort of the the next steps, and I'm I'm I'm trying on this netomnia thing, and I know you're gonna say you can't say anything. I can't possibly I can't I can't say because of there, someone will jump on me. But it's an acquisition done, so do you think there'll be more for next fibre? I can't ask you that.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Again, that would be speculation, but but bearing in mind but bearing in mind, you know, we've talked about it quite often actually, you know, even last year when we said that we were gonna form a netco, which didn't actually come to pass in the end. Um our statement when we put that out to say that we were gonna form a netco, um it was altnet consolidation was a part of that plan. So and we put that out publicly, so that's nothing that I'm not saying that's that can't be said. Um and we made that statement because we believe that it's yeah, there's there's like I said, there's some really good networks out there. Tomnya is a great example, and you said it yourself. They have a great network, it's a really good product, a really good offering. And you know, if this acquisition does go through, then I imagine it would be a real asset to the next fibre business.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Yeah, well, let's not forget as well, you know, Virgin is uh uh historically is a a group, uh quite a few cable companies historically that aligned, so so totally cool with that. But the most important question when you invite me to your house in um Mayfair and you're cooking me a meal, what three studies in Mayfair? I bet you do. I'll be in the bins nearby. What three courses would you cook for me and why? Oh, see, this is like death row meal. Yeah, well hopefully you're letting me leave your house.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

But you know you know what I mean in terms of what would I do. I'm I'm really basic. I'm really basic.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

So well, you you couldn't be talking to a more basic person, as anyone that knows me will attest to.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

So I'm gonna say it's not what I feel you would want, like, or disease. It's more, it's more what I am capable of making you. So I would say as a starter beans on toast starter, beans on toast bean. No, prawn cocktail starter. I like a prawn cocktail. Um I do a mean spaghetti bolognese.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

Why is yours mean?

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Because it's it's just years of that's the only thing I could actually make. So that's grinding your mints. I don't take it that far, but you know, I'll buy the packet mints, but everything else is from is from scratch. Garlic bread? I could do a garlic bread as a side.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Yeah, porn cocktail, garlic bread. And then dessert.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Um I don't I can't make desserts.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

I mean you don't need to make these by the way. You could you put you on the phone?

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Oh, right, in terms of I was actually just gonna say I was just gonna say, you know, just like an angel delight, because that's really easy to make. I bought that the other day. So we've got prawn cocktails, back ball, angel delight. I mean Mayfair. That's awesome, mate.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

If there's a load of memeti, I'm still there, so that's all absolutely, yeah, and there'll be loads of red wine. Oh, I'll tell you what, my my marketing director will be keen on that though. Thank you so much, sir. I feel like we could chat for another five hours on a number of topics. I think the and I'm reflecting, and and I love these, and it's such an honour to be sat opposite people in industry because a lot of the time I will think about nothing else really, probably for the next few days, except when I'm I'm feeding the baby. Um, where an individual's journey and where it evolves and where it comes from, starting from your dad, kind of, and I've got this image of someone in a field with a pitchfork going, I've had enough of this, throwing it and walk into um the city, starting a job where sorry, not starting a job, going to school, head teacher, arranged marriage with the head teacher's daughter, moving to London. Quite I don't want to say authoritarian, but a little bit in terms of that, the pressure of that Coventry University, which we will be talking about in a little bit separately, and that'll probably be the X-ray.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

I met my wife at Coventry University, so everything happens for a reason.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

Well, at least something good came out of Coventry, then no offense to anyone from Coventry. Um and you know, boiler room existence in sales, working through internationally learning French, diverging sort of journey, transforming that business, doing some pretty I'll say controversial things, and then a forward view in terms of the market. Um and I think what I would say, anyone watching this with any questions, I would definitely reach out to Razza, he will always be open to have a chat and benefit experience. And if you are from different walks of life, it doesn't necessarily have to mean skin color anything. We all feel sometimes do we fit in, do we belong? And I think there's there's so much we can we can um we can learn from and and and aspire to. So thank you so much for your time. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure. Um, thank you, sir. Cheers, man. Cheers, thank you so much. Um, really enjoyed the episode. Um, I always find these outros really difficult because we film them at the end, and my guest is always just staring at me. So it's been an absolute pleasure today. We've had Razza on talking about his career journey. There's so much to take home from this. I think, and I said this on in the pod, and anyone kind of who's who's um who's still listening to my ramblings at the end, the sort of inspiration can't be um underpinned. And I think when we look at our industry, and this is kind of immediate reflections, we can do better and we should do better. And I think a big take out for me is any business owners, influential people in sales leadership roles or any roles really, is look past hiring someone similar to you. It doesn't matter all that stuff, it's are they good for the job? And I think if we naturally gravitate towards that, we will see a richer channel, which is what we all want fundamentally. Um, thank you so much for watching. Um, as always, cheers, mum, and uh till the next time, thank you.