Chewing the Channel LIVE: In conversation with Dave McGinn

In an industry first, we took our podcast on the road and streamed live from the floor of this year’s Channel Live.

Among a host of high-profile names, Will was joined by long-standing channel voice Dave McGinn, who shared insights from a telecoms and technology career spanning almost three decades.

Having played a key role in scaling Daisy, Dave has seen first-hand how the channel market has evolved. Together, Will and Dave explore where the industry is heading and the opportunities ahead for resellers.

Website: www.elevate.uk/wholesale

LinkedIn: Will Goodall

Phone: 0330 058 9530

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:11

What I wanted to kind of touch on is leadership in the channel and leadership within a business that is scaling rapidly is one of the biggest challenges I see having experienced it within businesses and also see it from our partners where they're they're growing and they're at that stage where they think, well, actually we can we can we need some web funding but we can we can really explode that's a very dangerous point within that business where I've seen some spend loads of cash, hire loads of people, go away from their mission statement, core values, and and fail. And then others where they've they've stayed consistent and they've built and added those bits in and you know maintained. And obviously, for you with with such a massive business like Daisy, there's been probably, and these are the bits I want to unpack, points on that journey where you could quite easily have made the wrong decision and the the house of cards, if you like, collapses because you may be acquiring businesses, integrating them, we're gonna do this, and and you could have lost track quite easily and it failed. And I think sometimes people don't factor in when speaking to people like you that there are these dangers within there, it's not all plain sailing. And I know we joked about it off camera, you're like, oh, it's been easy, never never any stress. Um, but before we get into that, where where were you where did you grow up then? Where are you originally from, Dave?

SPEAKER_00 1:38

So originally from London, so not that far from here. Yeah, so originally from London, and without going through my my the whole of my career, I guess. You know, I I guess I got involved in telecoms in the very early 90s. So, you know, been around now for a fair amount of time.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

What was your first in terms of getting into telecoms in the 90s? Was that through sales? Was that through technical support?

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Was it a sales element that started you on the so I now need to go back even further, unfortunately. So I I got into I got involved in sales in 1985 with my first sales role, and actually it was a lesson. So the reason why I got into sales was I'm I'm a carpenter and joiner by trade. So that's what I you know when I left school, got a job, I went to univers, I went to college, got myself uh you know, City and Girls, and basically become a carpenter and joiner. And then I was with somebody who was going to a wedding. Now bear bear in mind this was in the 80s, and uh, you know, I was probably dressed at the weekend like Don Johnson, Miami Vice, yeah, like Peruccinos, Espergils, you know.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Sort of a still jazz lab day. I'll be honest with you, you know, this is this is Swart and the.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

But and and I remember this person said to me, Look, we're going to a wedding, and you can't dress like that, you've got to have a suit. So I went and bear in mind, this was in the 80s, I paid £100 for a suit. I remember buying it from Marleyburn Road, paid £100 for a suit, which is probably a couple of weeks' wages for me at that time.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Well thinking I'm gonna have to chisel a lot of walls for this.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

It was yeah, and uh um so anyway, so I bought the suit and then I wore it the once, and then I realised I'm never gonna wear this suit again because I'm a joiner. So on that basis, I never need to wear this suit again. And actually, I want to get value for money out of that suit. So the only way, and I was talking to friends of mine, I said, look, yeah, I've bought this suit, and if I don't wear it again, it's a complete waste of money. So therefore, I need to work out what I can do to wear this suit.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Monetize the suit.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yeah, and that was it, and it was about so I then so then I realised that was my that was the first lesson that people don't mind spending as long as there is value for money in that spend. So I then decided to get involved in sales. I mean, you know, friends of mine said, Well, you talk a lot, so therefore, give you.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

You've got the gift of the guy.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Yeah, but so but we all know that sales isn't always about talking, but I didn't realise that at the time I got involved in sales and kind of accelerated through. So it was because of that one event that changed my direction in what I was looking to do.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Because I think I look back because that's a big thing though, because if you think about it, sort of trades in the trades, and my father-in-law he's he's in trade, it's pretty much there'll be various alliterations of it, but you're gonna do that for the rest of your career, you're gonna be a joiner, and that's gonna be discipline, and you're kind of putting your your flag in the stand, and then you're going actually, I've got this suit, and and you know, I look like Don Johnson, and I I quite liked walking around Marble Road, and you know, that's that's appealing, and sales, you know, you're kind of moving into sales to start with, and you get to still and you get to speak to people as well, which is obviously uh a passion of yours. Was it kind of did it tick a lot of boxes when you look back? At the time, was it kind of less planned? More, I've got this suit, I'm gonna give it a go.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

It was definitely less planned. I mean, I I didn't know what I wanted to do, was the truthful answer. And funny enough, I was talking to somebody on the train on the way down. I'm still not sure I know, you know, but but I've done I've done relatively well throughout that period, and yeah. I I guess I've I got involved in telco in the in as I said in the early 90s, and it we were in the mobile industry at that time, and I could not believe how easy it was. I mean, it was just and I and I think because of the training that I'd had in sales, getting into mobiles was really, really simple, you know, and and and and I've I I kind of excelled at that. I mean, there's a few people that I know that are still in the industry, one person in particular that started with me at the same organization. We both started, he still works in one of the networks, you know, and we've kind of had a we've had a different journey, but we started at the same place. Um, and and I found it, you know, I just I I I kind of excelled at it. I I loved it, I loved what we was doing.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

What did you what did you love about it in terms of sales? Is it was it the achievement of of winning, the monetary side, the sense of achievement of um kind of growing and achieving more, and and the sort of because sales is is an interesting discipline, isn't it? It's one where your dad age, you the more you put in, the more you get out, and it and it can be very addictive. Did you just kind of that you caught it and you were this is the way?

SPEAKER_00 6:16

But I think there's a couple of parts there. So, you know, first of all, everybody loves to buy. Everybody loves to buy something, but they love to be salted by a professional. They love to be salted by somebody that actually really knows what they're talking about. You know, and I used to use what yeah, we call KYC free. So know your customer, know your company, and know your competitors. So whenever I'm selling, I would also understand, right, okay, what is my if my customer was saying something to me, what are they actually saying to me? How do I translate that into you know their their why? If I then look at, right, if I start talking about my competitors, I know I never run down a competitor because that's not what it's about. But actually, I need to understand where they're really, really good and where I'm maybe slightly in a different place, you know. So so I find, and then I need to understand from my company's point of view, yeah, how can I be the best version of me with a company?

SPEAKER_02 7:07

What made you think like that? Was it through the journey into sales, or have you always had that sort of approach in terms of, you know, outside of work where you've always wanted to kind of listen and relate, be it wanting to persuade your mates maybe to go for a beer or um family events, have you always been able to kind of absorb certain information and to focus it and manoeuvre it a little bit to to how and where you want it to go? And I'm looking at your face and I'm thinking maybe so.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

I'm I'm not 100%. You know, I I I think I looked at probably the psychology of the cell, you know, and if you look at the psychic, you know, I'd always look and say, if somebody's saying something to me, what is it they're really, really saying? Yeah, and then and and for argument's sake, I'm I'm going back, bearing in mind this was the early 90s, they're going back, somebody would walk into the shop and and it happens now. Every and if I tell you the story, you're gonna go, yeah, that starts to happen. But you somebody walks into the shop and the the salesperson would get up and go over and say, Hi, can I help? And then the customer, because they didn't like that, oh, you've been raiding my space, they'd go, I'm just looking. Yeah, and then the salesperson, oh but I'm sitting over there, if you need me, come over and sit. And you go, right. So, first of all, that my view was I know the customer is likely to say that. So, what's my next follow-up? If I know the because my next follow-up can't be, but I'm sitting over in the chair, because he can see me when he walks in, but I'm sitting over on the chair. So the moment the customer would walk in, if I was if I decide that I'm going to get out, then I would basically go, hi, can I help? No, it's I'm just looking. Not a problem at all. Is it something you're looking for yourself or your other half? My other half. I'm back in the game again. So it was always about that psychological part.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

I was interested, really, really interesting there, Dave. I was talking to um Vincent before, Dunir Junior, and he said one of the kind of formative years was uh PC World, and you had kind of two scenarios almost as a salesperson where you're on the floor, and to his mind, it's probably saying yours, people are walking in to the store. There is an inclination to look to buy something or to learn more about something that they want about. And you would have two people where to your point, they go, Oh, sorry, I'll be over here, or you'd have someone that would maybe stand there and hope that someone meets them. Whereas you're kind of talking about being proactive, but being proactive based on feedback in terms of what you know they want to hear and how you can try and keep that FaceTime and then hopefully maneuver maneuver forward to the customer into a sale because you're finding that information and you're kind of starting that in the in the early 90s. At what point during that journey did you kind of because you could quite easily have done the sales gig, sales director, chief revenue officer, but there's a point during that journey where you're kind of moving from the sales director role with Anglia and into other businesses where you're responsible for your business as the CEO where you're not just sales, you've got uh look after the PL, you're look after the budget, people's welfare, all these different things. At what point does a, by the sounds of it, a natural salesperson go, do you know what? I want to shape a business. I feel I can add value not just to the orders coming in.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yeah. So I'll I'll come back to that in a second. So let me let me just expand upon that. You know, I I remember when I took over a particular part of the business, and I remember um meeting one of the people in sales, and you know, we we was we was acquiring lots of business and everything else. There was probably slight disarray and bits of you know, when you when you try to put them all together, um and I remember sitting down with uh with a particular salesperson, I said, So, so why are we not selling to new customers? And they said, Because our customer services is not great. I said, Okay, tongue in cheek. I said, but the new customers don't know that yet. I said, you know, once you've sold to new customers and they say your customer service isn't that great, you go, okay, you're right. But you can't use that as a reason why you're not selling to new customers because they don't know. So that was a really, really important part for me. And I remember sitting down and another person come up to me, fearing mind my background was in distribution, partnering, you know, and and and growing all the issues. Yeah, and it was, you know, and and I remember one person said to me, uh, well, you don't know what we do here. I said, right, okay. So they said, um, you know, they they told me everything that I didn't uh and I was just like, brilliant, this is I said, just so I can understand, have we got salespeople that know how to sell this product? Yeah, I said, have we got specialists that know how to support the product, customer services, you know, installers, etc., etc., etc. And she went, yeah. I said, Thank God for that. For a minute, I thought you wanted me to do it all. That is not what I'm there for, you know. So then what I then look at is go, okay, what am I there for? And I talk about the four key stakeholder management. Five, if you want to include ESG, but I'll keep that out for a second, I can get back to that afterwards if you if you want. You know, but for me, it's about how do we make sure, and in no particular order, but how do we make sure we look after the investor? Because the investor needs to think we are the best investment for their money. That's not because I'm there to support the investor. I want them to go, do you know what? I'm going to overly invest in you as an organization so you can grow that business. Therefore, once they're doing that, once I get them into a position where they're really happy, I then look at the employees.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

And as well, the investors that are really happy with you, they're not going, Dave, can we have 14 meetings a day? Can I put can I control they're giving you free reign, if you like, and the autonomy to run it how you see fit.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

So anyone that knows you know, and there there has been there's been a few bits and pieces that have been quite interesting. But you know, I used to go into the board meetings at the very, very beginning, and basically I put some slides up, and because I wasn't, you know, polished and everything else and what I was doing at the time, I put on some slides, and the last slide would just be a tin of Ronceal, and that was it. And basically, we just said, and I remember sitting down with Matt and he went, Ronceal. I said, if that's what we say we're gonna do, it's exactly what we're gonna do. That's exactly what we're going to deliver, and that was exactly what we end up doing, you know. And if you speak to anyone within Daisy, the anyone that's been around that, they would tell you actually, no, they they are definitely Ron Seal. They are definitely if they say they're gonna do that. So that was about getting the investor absolutely on side. Then we can then focus on the employees. Now I remember taking over the particular part of the business, and uh the directors were all in their offices, all at the off, all at the end of the thing. I said, right, okay, well, they're coming out of there because we need to train turn them offices into training rooms for our staff. And they said, but we haven't got any trainers, right? That's my next part. We need to get some trainers to train our staff to back.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

How did the um how did they react to losing their nice office? No, it was okay. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

They were saying they were saying there was no no none whatsoever. Because at the end of the day, it was about what's the what you know, providing you keep people on that mission, yeah, what are we trying to do?

SPEAKER_02 14:17

So I don't think it's the right thing. I definitely do. But there is a school of thought that and you obviously had the right people there and made the change. It was it was it was small, smooth running. But that's quite a big call to go, right, out of your offices, you have every sometimes in in other businesses I've now, directors would have reacted and gone, no, we're not. We need an office. We're you know, I've got to this position, there's a status to it, and all these sort of outdated things. But you had good people that kind of were like, yeah, understand.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

It was absolutely fine. They need to, yeah, and and no, some of them got offices back again, yeah, in different areas in different parts of it. I never had an office, never. Yeah, so whenever I went in there, I was always on the floor, regardless whether it was upstairs or downstairs. I was always out. And I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Why was that because you wanted to hear what was going on to be I wanted to be seen.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

I wanted to be seen. You know, that's it. From for me, at the end of the to create the right culture and everything else, you need to, you can't just be in, you know, people talk about ivory towers and everything else. So I was always just being seen. So we then created an environment where people could learn. So we we had our, you know, our vision was about being better every day. Yeah, and what I liked about better every day was take the first initial, B E D, go to bed. You've been better now, go to bed. Next day, better every day again. And actually, we took people on that journey. We put in management training courses because what happens is people promote somebody to their level of incompetence, but you only do that by not training them. Yeah, well, you only do that by not training them for the next role. If you train them for the next role, they don't become incompetent, they become the next person. So, you know, and what happens, and and funny, I've I've wrote something recently where they take the best salesperson and they make them a sales manager, and you go, well, actually, that doesn't necessarily mean they're the best sales manager. They were just the best salesperson. It might be because of they're selfish or it might be because of loads of other things.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

I have not said this before, I don't think. So I the first job I ever had, I worked for a sales manager in finance. It's not on Linsay, he was the most successful salesperson in the business, driving a Porsche 9-11, as maybe 2122. Porsche 911, earning significant sums of money. So they did that exact move and put him in a manager role. And I remember I did a week's induction and he said, like, you've had your training, I don't expect any questions at all. And literally, they were just churning people because they'd put him and thought he'll be able to train people, and it wasn't his at that time skill set, he was a brilliant salesperson, but a terrible leader. Yep, terrible man.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

And that's the point though, isn't it? Because you change the environment that they was really, really good in and expect them to be good in a different environment and they're not. So that becomes the challenge. So, you know, so by doing that, so we were making the investors, so the investors were happy, so they were investing into us as an organization. Our employees, we went from a we wouldn't do a survey to actually two stars in best companies to work for, so that was going in the right direction. Then what we need to look at was the customer services, because actually we knew, you know, as a salesperson said to me, right, we don't sell to new customers because our customer service, yeah, it's not where it needs to be, therefore, how do we improve our customer services? So we start putting metrics in there, so we start measuring, and that's the part. It's about the measurement. What are you measuring? Because if you measure the end result, then it's too late. The end result is way, way too late. You need to measure way before that. Yeah, if you're in sales, France, how many calls are you making?

SPEAKER_02 17:41

On that question there, but what prompted you though, as potentially could have been really selfish salesperson, leader, you know, it could have been sales to go into I want to lift the bonnet up on this business, focus on customer service, focus on the culture, deal with investors. I want all these new headaches as opposed to sell loads of stuff and okay. What was in you that was kind of like, I want, I want it all, I wanted to own every aspect. What what when you look back now? What do you think kind of pushed you into that?

SPEAKER_00 18:14

So I think there's a couple of parts. So my favourite saying is I'd rather have 1% of 100 people than 100% of myself. Because at 1%, I can move to 2%, I can move to 3%, I can keep on moving it. 100% of myself, I'm done. You know, so at the end of the day, I believe that to be successful, you need to serve people, you need to be take people on a journey. You need so so for me, it was always about people. I am very much focused on how we can get the best out of you. I think it was Albert Einstein that once said, don't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree because it's useless at climbing trees. Put it in the right environment is absolutely superb. And that was what I was always looking at. How do we make sure that we get the best out of you? I don't believe that anybody turns up for work, and I'm sure every now and then, but nobody really turns up for work, says, you know what, I'm gonna put a shocking base working today because I can't be bothered.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

So at the end of the day, how do you even you've been spoken to my boss have you?

SPEAKER_00 19:08

But that and that's the point. So at the end of the day, if there are people like that, it's how do we motivate you or do something else to get you going in the right direction?

SPEAKER_02 19:16

And during that period where you're working within Daisy, um, Daisy Cons, then into no Daisy distribution, sorry, DaisyCon. Are there any points within there where you're feeling stale or you need to reinvent yourself? Because it's like I said to you outside, what's really rare with yourself and only a handful of other people is CEOs typically, so like a chief revenue officer, their average shelf life is I think 18 months. The CEO, you know, a couple of years, two, three years, and and maybe an investor will go about, I want a new head, or you know, they'll maybe get potion. It's very rare for CEO to stay so long within a business and see constant growth there. Because there's there needs to be a it's a bit like if you like football, like an Alex Ferguson thing where there's that reinvention and he's constantly driving to improve, he didn't get stale. Whereas other football managers maybe after a few years you kind of say, Well, they're a bit stale, they they need what what drove you to keep in that role, keep growing? Is it your constant change, like you individually you get what I'm saying? It's it's a very unusual thing to be honest, because most would have done four or five years now. I said, Thanks, Matt, very much. I'm gonna go over to blah blah blah as a CEO, they've asked me, they've offered me some equity, and then I'm gonna do that for a few years, and then I'm gonna, whereas you've been very loyal and very uh consistent within within the same business.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

I but I think that you know, if I forget the mission for a second, but actually, if I think about our vision was about being better every day. So, and when we launched our vision to be better every day, I then decided, bearing in mind I've been running, I've been CEO for I don't know, seven, eight years or whatever in the business. Um, and I then decided actually it must have been less than that, I then decided that I'm going to go and be cut and get uh go to university. So literally, if I if I go back to my school days, I left school at the age of 15. Um, I'm sure my exam results would have said that he turned up, that would have been it, that it wasn't great. I then decided that I want to be the best version of myself. So I then went to do a master's an MBA um uh at Manchester University. While this was just the real coming out of COVID, yeah, so it was only a few years. Running a business, driving every global we were doing some of the biggest deals with biggest acquisitions we'd done at the time. Um was running the business, uh, trying to maintain everything and growing throughout that period as well. So we were throwing really, really well. Um and uh ended up doing an MBA throughout that period. Why? Because I wanted it and everything That's the that's the question because you Well, I I think it's really so we were all on, and everyone was talking about why they were on there doing the MBA. So one of them was, I want to get a better job, I want to give more salary, I want to get all these things. And I said, look, all of the things that you're talking about, the better job, something. I said, I have all of that. I have everything that you're talking about. I have the job that I love, I enjoy the industry that I'm in, etc. etc. I said I've got all of that. I said, I'm on here to be the best version of me for the benefit of all the staff that work for me. I said, because I believe that they deserve to have the best person looking after their interests. That's the only reason why I'm on there. And that was a that was, yeah, if you think about the motivating factors to get you through something. I mean, bearing in mind, they started talking about referencing. I'd never done referencing in my life. Yeah, there was loads of things that were kind of new to me, um, and new ways of learning and everything else. So I had to push myself through that, knowing that the only reason why I'm doing it, not to get another salary, because I had a different view, not to get a better job, I already had that, but actually the best version of me for the benefit of all the staff. That was the only reason why I was on there.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

How is it then because ultimately, and I I agree with everything you say, but there has to be points as a CEO or imaginary growing business where you have to make difficult decisions that people don't like for one of my description for the betterment of the business? It could be you've acquired a business and it's left you with two HR directors, two markets, and there has to be a um a natural chair. How did you marry those sort of decisions during your career where you're perceived negatively by certain people who are impacted, but you know it's the right thing? Was that a challenge for you?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

I think someone once said to me that if you want to make everyone happy, sell ice cream, because everyone loves your ice cream, man. So you're not gonna make everybody happy all of the time. You know, but it is a challenge of the ACC. There is there is a there is a you know, there is a challenge with you know, within when you are when you take over a different organization and you know that certain people are gonna be doing. But you need to, if you're gonna do that, you need to try to do that as quick as you possibly can. Because otherwise, people will be thinking it anyway. So therefore, you need to go, right, okay, these this is what we're doing, this is yeah, and and just go, right, this is what we need to focus on, yeah, and and then we can carry on, then we can grow. Yeah, we're not doing it because we don't like the individuals or anything else, we're doing it because we want to grow a business.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Same being as a collective, and then in terms of now, you're you know, we're fast-forwarding over years, it's the it's the the benefit, I guess, of having a 40-minute period. You've kind of gone from 1980s to to the 2020s now in the space of 20 minutes. But when you're kind of out now and you're looking at the industry, the channel, and things like that, and you've got that, I guess you can have that full 360 view where you're you're not in the the beast, you can kind of speak to friends and people that you know in the industry. As we're kind of looking at a few external issues in the world, what if you were a business in the channel now, would you be excited? Would you be wary of certain things? Where do you see the sort of opportunities? Um, deliberately kind of throwing quite a wide question because you have a wide um circumference in terms of 360, and you can kind of look at it. If you were, so what's your view on the market now? A lot of these businesses kind of walking around here. Would you be excited? Would you be patterning down the hatches? What do you what would you do?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

So I think there's always excitement in this industry. Yeah, it's a great, you know, and and yeah, you'll have people that say, Oh, do you know what there's you know it's a challenge, there's there's tough times, or but but it actually depends on what you focus on. Now, you know, you as uh um uh you interviewed uh FlowTech earlier on, um, and I would imagine that they'd be saying actually the industry is great because their starting position is slightly different from maybe some other people's starting position. They're throwing. So, you know, and they're at the end of the day, they're looking at acquisitions. So, you know, and I think when you when you start looking at acquisitions, you really need to understand why am I doing it? Well, why you know, and and a lot of people want to jump on that because they look at the likes of Daisy that have done really, really well with that, acquired loads of businesses, put them together, but they need to understand why are you going to go on an MA spree? Is it for scope? Is it for scale? Is it adding products? But if you go back back into the 90s, or yeah, actually in the early 2000s, you'd have people that really, really focused on selling mobile, never focused on selling fixed line. And the same way, you'd have people focused on fixed line, never selling mobile. What's happened? Then two different types of organizations have now started growing over that period. So all of a sudden, the mobile person is now selling fixed line, they're now selling systems. So what you do is if I'm gonna make numbers up, but let's say that the mobile industry was worth a billion. If you was only interested, if you were only selling mobile, your marketplace is a billion. But if you sell fixed line, that's another billion, you've now doubled your marketplace. If you then say, well, actually, I'm gonna put telephone systems on there, you're now at three billion. You then, you know, so then you start looking at what am I adding and what people in this industry are absolutely brilliant at, whether it's from an entrepreneurial type individuals, is actually how do we look to grow organizations? How do we look to, you know, and the ones that are growing are the ones that are saying, General, absolutely let's add cyber security. You know, you talk about the challenges around the world at this moment in time. Cybersecurity is obviously one of the key things.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Well, that's that's the big thing, isn't it, at the minute, where you've got ISPs moving to MSPs and and there is opportunity, but it's fraught with challenges in terms of the expertise in those areas. But I totally agree with you in terms of you know, if I'm looking at the market, to your point, if you just sell the one product, that's great. But that's all you'll ever sell. And I think we are seeing resellers, some of them are dipping their toes in the market a little bit in terms of different products. I mean, you you probably saw that historically with you know, from your vantage point inwards, and you're seeing more of it now. If someone doesn't do that and the way the market's changing, do you think a business is at risk of kind of not succeeding or not growing to the extent that they want to?

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Depends on what they want to do. You know, some people are set up and all they want to do. They're correct. That's all they want. They want a lifestyle business, they want a salary, they want, you know, and and brilliant, well done. You know, and and there are some people that go, Do you know what? I want to build a business and I want to sell it and I want to go and retire. Absolutely brilliant. And there are others that are kind of in between, and it depends on where you are. And that's why I talk, you know, when I talk about to founders and people looking to sell their business, yeah. The first question I ask them is, so what are you gonna do next? Because if you can't work out what you're gonna do next, then actually find it really, really difficult to go, I'm gonna sell the business. Because you you're kind of drawn back into it. So I think there are differences out in the marketplace.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

Yeah, it's it's um I was talking to um James Bustin, MD at uh Company in Telford Associated Telecom, and uh said, I'll do your normal, how's business? And most people coming asked, they'll say, Oh, it's a bit tough out there, but his view was there's always business there. You've just got to be proactive and hunt for it. You know, I'd he wouldn't allow the mentality of there's not opportunity, there's some opportunity in everything.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Yeah, and I think that's probably a a thing I think it says the mindset of the industry of I think if you're not looking to grow, yeah, there's a chance you'll you'll go backwards, even if you want to stay the same, you should be looking to Yeah, I mean I'm I remember speaking to a friend of mine recently, and uh you know, he said, Hey you know, how things I said, yeah, you know what, it's this so we're doing all right, it's a tough marketplace, um, but we're doing all right. He said, babe, you've been saying that for the last 24 years, you know, um and you have been exceedingly growing and everything else. And the only reason why I talk about that is it's a bit a little bit like, you know, if you're not falling down when you're skiing, you're not pushing yourself hard enough. So you're gonna find it, you know, there are gonna be different challenges out there. You just gotta go, how do we overcome it? Because I think the moment people become comfortable, that's when the challenge starts kicking in. You know, so you've always got to be looking and going, my whole drive.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

That's exactly my whole point, and why I was so keen to speak to today is you haven't got comfortable during that period, but a lot of people would have got comfortable as a CEO of a business, they'd have got really comfortable, and then suddenly there's there's more holidays, they're devolving more things down, and I know you'll have seen it in other areas, but you've never got comfortable. If anything, you've gone, do you know what? There's a pandemic, I'm leading a business, I'm leading the culture. I need to go and add a master's degree as well. Do you know what nature's just and that's obviously helped, and that's coming across really clear. And you know, I guess my my kind of last question, I know we touched on it before, is you've obviously got still shed loads more to give. Where where do you see yourself? Are you working? Is it is it very much working with businesses to support them in terms of advisory? Do you see yourself getting back in as a C over business? Uh you know, it's not a job interview. Um, I'd be working for you if it was. But where do you where do you see yourself or you or you're just kind of happy at the minute?

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Listen, I I you know, if I look at our mission that we used to use our missions, probably it's gonna change, but you know, I I've I talk about keep Britain working, and the reason why I think keep Britain working is so important is the more people contribute to society, the better society becomes. Um, so if I can help organizations grow their business, then absolutely I'm gonna look at going, right, how do I help you grow? You know, if there's some if there's some words of wisdom that I can support an organization or just pointing me in the right direction, absolutely I'm up for that. You know, there will be different roles out there. Um, I've got too much energy to go, I'm not gonna do nothing golf. Yeah. Um, but actually, you know, I'm I'm I'm I guess I'm fortunate enough that I don't need to just jump at something.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Um, but I do want to sort of you can you can pick, you're not kind of, you know, if I leave this job today, I'm pretty much getting another one. Um I think it's really, you know, I'll I'll kind of finish on this. I mean, Jay and Dave, when we were talking about merging acquisitions, they really both of them stressed the importance of businesses having um support, executive support, be it from if they're doing a merging acquisition, having that person who's been there, done it, the advisor, if you like, strategic advisor that that will help these businesses.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Dray, Jay, give me a call then.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

Yeah, yeah. But you know, I it's impossible when we do these things, Dave, to go through such a career in in a short period of time is impossible. It's been a privilege to be sat opposite, yeah. And hopefully, people watching at home have seen some value seen to stay in the same business for so long and just be constantly challenging yourself to progress to progress. And we've not even touched on the amazing charity work you've done. And you know, I'd encourage anyone to look at that and to donate because there's amazing causes. Um, I would not do that. I will sponsor you, but I would not swim that. I'd probably have a heart attack. But um, it's been an absolute pleasure to thank you so much for agreeing to come on. And uh, you know, I'm sure if you're a business owner out there and you you need some device, you need someone that's been there, maybe got the odd scar from previous experiences who can advise you. That's invaluable. It's better to be advised than to learn yourself the hard way. So thank you so much, Dave, for your time. It's really appreciated. Thanks well, cheers, realtor. Thanks, though. Thank you. Cheers, Mike. Cheers, guys. Thank you so much.