Chewing the Channel LIVE: In conversation with Jay Ball & Dave Rogers

In an industry first, we took our podcast on the road and streamed live from the floor of this year’s Channel Live.

Among a host of high-profile names, Will was joined by friend of the pod Jay Ball (Flotek Group) and Dave Rogers (Planet Technology). With close to 20 mergers and acquisitions between them, the conversation focused on M&A and its impact on the channel, alongside broader industry insight and experience.

Listen as they share their perspective on how the channel is evolving, the impact of consolidation so far, and what the future may hold.

Website: www.elevate.uk/wholesale

LinkedIn: Will Goodall

Phone: 0330 058 9530

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:11

I have two celebrity guests with me. I've got the I've got Mr. Jay Bolov, founder of the show, Close Tech CEO, founder. And then I have Mr. Dave Rogers, founder of Panic Technology Limited. Between them, I think we're looking at nearly 20 acquisitions of businesses. Kind of, and if I add my finger into there, it's nearly 20 acquisitions. Key to get into you both today. Talking about kind of MA, it's a big topic, everyone's kind of talking about it. And for me, I think we there's a lot of misconceptions in terms of what people think, be it the seller who owes a business and it's a personal thing, right? And you've built it, you love it, and to you, to put a value on it can be problematic in the market currently seeing where where a founder may say, This is my business, I've run it for 20 years, I need to retire on the back of it. This is all and the reality is when perhaps you lift the bonnet up, it's not quite in that position. And then how you deliver that news, which I'm sure both of you have done previously, you both sold businesses as well. You both full enough, and and this is quite interesting. Hexited businesses bought the bill of inside for us, moved to Cyprus or holiday Cyprus, and then gone, no, we want to get back into it. Um and then to anyone watching, we were catching up off uh offline, and I think do you two live like five minutes away from each other in Cyprus? So potentially after this, uh I don't live in Cyprus, funnily enough. Uh I can get I'd invite you, bro. You can get saying no. Well, I'm not house chained, unfortunately. So kind of kicking it off, and I'll I'll start with you, Jay, just because you're you're near the tram line. From a a seller's point of view, yeah, for your when you sold your first business, what was the sort of what was the due diligence you went through? Because you'll have been lots 22, 23. Uh so 21 where I sec up the business. So I started when I study four. So how did how did you go into that? When you're looking back now, yeah, with your lens of 14, 15 acquisitions. Yeah. J. Boo 34, first ever sale. When you reflect on that, what are you happy? Do you think you would have done differently? What was your sort of experience on that? Were you actively looking to sell? Was it kind of a offer too good to be true? What was the sort of scenario in there for you? Lots of badges. Um look, we weren't we weren't lucking the sell at that point. We were looking to actually raise investment to acquire another business. And the advisor that we went to said to us, look, while you go out, why are we getting out to an advisor? Uh I always think, well, depending on the size of your business, I think you should be advised because if it's your first time doing it's out of fate, you just don't know what you don't know. Um and the advisors are brilliant, you know. In fact, my FD is actually was my advisor at the time. So, you know, I met a great person from that as well. So I'm sure he's listening, watching this. And I think having an advisor who's been made and uh understands it, knows what to look for is just really, really important. And yes, you pay hefty fees for that, and you know, I still remember the exact cost, but what that actually uh made in value for our business was honestly worth probably 10 times what that cost was. So it was totally worth it from that point of view. Well, sometimes, um, and I bet you say they've your businesses they'll try and manage the process themselves and not get that external resource. And kind of to your point, if you'd have just done that yourself, it could have maybe impacted the value. Yeah, no, we've we bought businesses from businesses that aren't represented, and we bought businesses that are. Sometimes advisors can be a great thing, sometimes they can be a complete hindrance, sometimes they can get in the way of the deal and they can um not let the seller see what actually is important and it's all about the money and another deal. Why would this interest in their day? You've kind of gone, totally agree. What what where could where could that challenge be with a with an advisor? How do they well just in theory, yeah? If I'm a LISO and MSP and I'm going to an expert, I'm expecting them to fully represent me and speak the benefit of me. Yeah, my my experience is I've seen it whereby they're almost justifying the reason for being there. So they'll overcomplicate which which is already a complicated process, and just slow the whole thing down. Um, to the point where I've seen them drop out of bed as a result with it. So we'll walk away. So not everyone who says they're a great advisor is a great advisor as well, by the way. And it's so what is their interest in that business? So it swings around about I totally agree you should have, excuse me, you should have an advisor. I would call him an advisor at the point of exit. We did. Um, it's just getting the right ones to make sure the transaction actually goes through. You've got to be very clear with your instruction, what you want from your advisor, otherwise they'll just take over and run with it. I seem to be uh how formed was that? So when you both first exited your built business it is, how intensive was that period of how? Are we talking you all right up in a long hours we could go through? You're still working in the business and trying to grow it. How did you balance that? Because to me, as a Philistine, yeah, that feels incredibly stressful where there's potentially a an exit with hopefully some nice money. You've got the people that you're loyal to and you grow in your business, and mentally as as entrepreneurs, you'll probably grow, grow, grow. And and it did that does that relationship change how you manage it? Because you're kind of thinking, I might not be here in a month, or I might be here in a month on a earnout, as which we'll touch on. Yeah, how did you deal with that sort of process of going through that where you were replayed? Is it on the ask you others? Right. So I've ate twice. The first time was I sold out my two partners stayed in, and so it was like an equity purchase of my shares. That was actually quite smooth. We came to uh an agreement pretty quickly in terms of the value, and because there was no one else involved, that was quite straightforward. We purchased my shares, we agreed the terms and conditions of it, worked out my period of non-compete, and off I went. It was all very, very amplified. Second time, uh, the large one with the sale of Excel through to uh with Waymet was yeah, it was quite it's stressful because there's just so many people involved in that process. I had a board of directors, I wasn't the major shareholder in that business, so I wasn't calling the shots necessarily, and I found that very frustrating because I got other people making final decisions where um I wouldn't necessarily have agreed with them. Um so that because it wasn't in my total control, I found that incredibly stressful.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

That's a nice ear in our out.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Yeah, I think we'll hear there's an element you're not in control, are you? It's if there's certain bits of external. I think you're hinting at I am a control freak, right? Yeah, correct. Um and so I found it's not as I I found it the most stressful situation in my entire life. Um, so I remember it was a probably an eight-month process of meeting different buyers, it was then doing the due diligence, it was then coming down to an early out agreement, and it was coming down to you know that legal period, and you're trying to run the business at the same time as you're actually trying to sell the business. So, and the thing is you have to make sure that the numbers are consistent because if the numbers start dropping or peaking, then it creates worry, concern, and you know, why are the numbers down? Why are they up, you know, what's the reason for it? So you've got to keep a consistent growth period, and that's really hard when your entire focus is on selling your business and not actually growing your business. And so doing those two things were 18, 20, two-hour days every single day. Um, I remember by the end of the process, I'd lost probably stolen half a weight. Um, I was stressed on my eyeballs. My family were all saying to me, Jay, why are you so stressed? So I couldn't tell them because I couldn't say we're selling our business, right? Because you just can't let that get out. Um, and it's so most stressful situation I've ever done personally. And does that help you both having been through that taking your second time and first time there, when you're looking at an acquisition, speaking to a fan, uh you can you understand that what's involved emotionally, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

You can you can you can empathize, and I think we we tend to find when we come up against other people who are bidding on the same business that we are, the difference quite often is I'm an entrepreneur. The person that is generally also bidding may not be an entrepreneur and is just a CEO that or an MA director who's never really run a business and doesn't understand the emotional impact that it's having on them, their family, their children, their life, and everything else. And so when you can empathize and understand how they're feeling, there's a there's a there's a different connection. And so I would say the reason we've won a lot of our acquisition opportunities isn't because we always go in with the biggest and the best prize, but it's actually because we understand what's important to them and we can empathize with it. And I'd imagine knowing Dave a short time, I can imagine he's very similar as well. Well, you mentioned earlier, it's the sales process, right? 100% right where you tackle a sales process in exactly the same way, right? We've got to have to be a better listener than you are a talker. Yep, I agree. And how important when you're looking at a business and is because we see it in the market some fantastic acquisitions made, however you want to bottle their buyer, it's really how the sales sites about business. Yeah. So we see it through the ISP through the 20 SP. So you might have a business now saying, right, we don't historically do security, but rather than pulling up that, we want to buy a um, you know, security person. I mean we've got that skill set, and I mean we put stuff where customers will cost cost south, so I know skill set. Because other partners or businesses, and uh my mention of IRPK people buy a customer base, yeah, we're gonna use two fund out of the customers, cross-selling them, and oh you that are uh uh acquisition of festivals rather than steel stacked within the business or and people, yeah, and then you've got a lot of intelligent culture. So I one of the things we're talking about, and they'll pick up with you on this is when you're reviving the business, you're also reviving the people that you're a bit in the static perspective and the books, but also the people that come with that business, yeah. What sort of I sort of sound you bat the scene where people made don't take allowances for the League of the People, or they don't take allowances for citizens or whatever. What sort of thing is do you pull out and roll up in your business? Is it or do it bother you? The people you know the it does bother me, you know. Um it depends on why you're buying that business. The people is the is is the really important part of it, I might want to do it because it's really difficult difficult to find good staff, right? So part of that acquisition, actually, if it's a successful business, they've got successful people in them. So actually, that the the people involved in it are a key ingredient as to why you would purchase that, purchase that business. Um, but it can be really tricky, right? Because then you've got you've got two heads of finances, you've got two heads of billing, you've got you know this synergy savings as they call it, and it's how you deal with that element to it and how you manage that. So I'll say cod the Kai D that because I imagine with an acquisition or in the channel that you just cover, you want to keep the people, or most of the people, in in the roles because they add value. You assume in nine times last time if you buy a business and everyone left the next day, you've been a bit of a challenge. But there is those synergies. Is it I mean, Dave, do you would you read is it do you try and redeploy? Yeah, or you know, how does that personally we would try and keep the people within the business? And if there wasn't a role for them, you try and find another role for them or let them grow into another role with them through as the business grows, but you know, it really is on a on a per instance basis, really. Sometimes it's inevitable, I guess, if it is oh, yeah, you know, sometimes people might say it's not my business for me. No, it's changed, it's bigger. I would I prefer smaller business, and yeah. But I mean, I know I've seen stuff from you, Jay, where you've tried to keep as many people always. I don't think you've ever kind of done that sort of thing. Most people have stayed in and and added into the business, haven't they? So I think as Dave said, you find you find your best people through acquisition, and it's really hard to find really good people. And so we've got some really good success stories, such as a receptionist on our first acquisition that is moving into an operations manager role for us. We've got people who have gone from a technician to our top sales to say, right? So you find some really good people, but at the same time, whatever's that show doesn't resolve. I could basically say that you're giving them a bastion. Also, on the downside of it, is sometimes when you acquire a business, those people don't want to be in a fast-paced business, they don't want to be in a fast growth business. And so sometimes it just doesn't fit. And so I think it's about just having those honest conversations. So we spend a lot of time with an acquisition, understanding the people, and generally, before we do the acquisition, or before we have that first meter with the staff, I'll generally know are they going to be here long term? What's their motivation? And I'll try and understand that in the deal and post. Will you the review not as this GJ and they would if you were doing that due diligence on the people? It's a brilliant business. So great buys, great blocks, but the people, it's not the right fit. You've done the due diligence. Is that a block? Is that enough for you to have the active thoughts? Yes. Serious considerations here, yeah. Because you don't have we're trying to row in that rechant culture planning. And you bring in uh the wrong set of people, it'll completely destabilise the whole thing. And I'm not prepared to risk the rest of the business just by bringing in one equitation. Right. Yeah, and I completely agree. I think we we've sort of done it where we've had conversations and the financial stacked up brilliantly, but the cultures just did not. And so when you meet a business owner, if they're all about the money and they're all about what they're gonna get from it, and you you ask that question, how do you feel if I got rid of all the staff? And they go, I wouldn't care. To me, that's the sort of you're seeing the true colours of up here. So that's one of the one of the things this is because I feel fortunate to be between you two. Uh and as a I guess uh an employer, one of the things you think about are does the owner make balances or or incorporate their people into the the sale of their business. Or is it uh, yeah, you can do what you want with them, they've won me for 20 years, they'll know the business, and you know, I don't care, but if they start asking you, so David, if I'm working for you, you're selling, and um you're kind of saying to Jay, who's buying your business, you buy a flacer, I want to make sure Will's look after he's done this, he's done that. You as a acquirer, you want to hear those sort of things from an owner where they're showing that loyalty to their people. Yeah, because look, you want to buy good businesses off good people, and you can very quickly see the true colours of a business owner within the first meeting. And so when we have our first acquisition meeting, I spend the first meeting, just get to know the business owner again to know the team, understanding the business. And very quickly, I'll know from that meeting do they have a handle on the business? That what are they like with their team? What's the culture like? Will it integrate into ours? And it doesn't matter how great the financials are, if if if I don't think it'll integrate, it's it's we stop. That's similar for you in turn. Yeah, yeah, demanding all. Yeah, definitely. I think so. But it's funny because when we started Planet, a lot of the guys that joined us initially have gone, have been wanting to join us as a result of them being through an acquisition somewhere else and they're going really bad. Yeah. So they were badly treated, right? But they're great, experienced people. So actually, we talk about it as a group openly about where Planet's going, what would happen at the event of a sale, you know, and just so that everybody's everybody understands what my motivation is, what their motivation is, um, and how we would play it at that point. And I think if you're if you're open and honest about it, the staff will understand, especially the ones that have been burnt once or twice previously at other organizations, you know, it's their lives. It's you know, it's these stuff. It's as important for them as it is for us, right? So yeah. One of the the threats there mentioned the terror, potential, and one of the common things I do la pan would be start crazy valuations of businesses where owner, founder, reseller, uh will value that his dunes for me is the thing that their revenue, so if there were two million pound bitch worth, where a business is worth a minimum of two million pounds and earnout and uh no lots of things on top. I don't know if my two questions and I'll start with with Jay and is that something you see? One, and number two, how can you through conversation evolve that from I'm worth two million pounds to actually I understand where you're coming from in terms of always a bit maybe unrealistic around valuation and and working together, or is that a red flag? Um it's difficult, right? Because we go back to advisors. There's certain advisors who will overvalue the business to get the instruction. And so straight away you're on the back foot because you're telling them their business is worth half of what was been valued at. So they think, oh, you're just trying to get a great deal. And so quite often we've had it where we've said, look, the true value of your business is this, and they go, Oh, we've had double, we've been told double that. And you go, okay, well, look, I always say go and see the market, go and have a chat with lots of people. And in a year's time, when you know you still haven't sold it for the amount that you think, come back and have a chat, right? And the doors open. And we've had a couple of people come back a year or so later and go and you know, not sort of tail between the legs, but just go, yeah, look, I've done my due diligence, you're quite right. The market is there, and a lot of people are living off past valuations, you know. Comms companies aren't worth what they were five years ago, you know, IT companies are worth more than they were five years ago. So, you know, we're in a different way, and I think a lot of people are living on past valuations. Some people hear about like focus who had an amazing deal years ago, and they think, well, I must be worth the same multiple that they got, and it's it doesn't work like that. So it is hard to uh educate them and say it. It's very personal, very personal. It's their baby, yeah, yeah. From from your size, like your speech is the same so you may or may not be uh going through something that that Jay Vasily gone through in terms of the announcements, the repetition. When you're having those conversations with with a business owner, are you similar to Jay or are there certain things you're if that objection comes down I'm worth it? So do you do you kind of say, look, you go out and try, you know. Well, you can't listen, at the end of the day, it's worth what it's worth to you, right? Um, and I'm not prepared to look at and pay in ridiculous sums of money because it's just it'll, you know, I I run the risk of devaluing the rest of my business as a result. So there is an education part to be played, and it depends on which stage, I've always find it depends on what stage you're talking to that potential seller. Yeah, because if you're if you're one of the first people they go and talk to, their valuation's up here, and then during the process of them talking to lots of people, it tends to sort of come to more of a normal level. So when they've been rejected a few times, you're pinking up a little bit. Design me positions, you know. It's not often that you'll go in and talk to somebody straight away and they've got a realistic valuation that the business is off the bat. But if they've got the right advice up front, hopefully they've structured that sale over a number of years, right? So that they've thought about selling their business two, three years ago, and they've started to put their business in shape to sell. So they've got the right uh reporting in place, they've put the right product structure in place, the right financials in place. So when they come to it, it's almost packaged up and gone. There you go. Yeah, and here's the pack, and we can look at it, and the transaction go a lot smoother. But it doesn't always and that's why it's good sometimes to have advisors, good advisors, your advisors, because they will tell them what they're about to be your value. Yeah, but like it's easy to get them. And so I think there's more bad advisors than our good. How do you find a good advisor? Is it just wear the mouth or speak to people who have who have done a deal, you know, who have done a deal and use somebody? We we use Nike Corpora, who were fantastic to draw our process. Uh, they they actually earn the value what we sold for.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

And I think they didn't have to sort of set a low expectation to get a deal. I buy it as well. Actually, what we've done is you've set our expectations here, what we've achieved here.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Instead of their, and then you've achieved have, and you're kind of and and kind of moving through that that acquisition bit, and this is something that. Jay, I know you you've done well out of, and I'm sure you have with uh with Properties in Cyprus is the the mechanism after the purchase where the CEO the key people this there's an earnout in place. And for my my wife watching, an earnout is where if you sell a business, um you agree to Jay or Dave that the business will hit this target, it will sell this, and and the revenue will be steady, and there won't be kind of I guess the wheels won't fall off in in layman's terms, and in return for that, I would get a bonus that would be agreed at the point of sale where it's a bit more money, and then for either of you two, it might be you want to keep that person on because you think they're a great employee, or it might just be naturally to go separate ways. So, I mean, how important to you is is is putting those processes in post the acquisition to try and uh it's different for who you are as well. So for me, I don't know if it's the person in Glass to ask Sammy physics as well, his own roofs. Every owner and a bit of a reason, so so it's about trying to understand what they want to get out of the process. Is it because they got to a certain age and they feel like they want to retire? That's always a bit of a car crash, never really works out that way. You know, or it once you understand what their motivations are for selling here, you can build the structure of the deal around that, right? To suit them and to suit, you know, if you can find a happy, happy media, and that's where the best uh the best uh sales will be made. That makes sense. And I know from uh from a there now, you you personally you you put one in place of first sale and and it and it worked really well. You sell the benefit of it. I had an idea on my deal, and you know, it was probably the most money I've ever made in a year. And so I'm a big fan of air apps, right? But they've got a really bad reputation. Yeah, yeah, they do, yeah. It's because you're getting stitched up at the back end, that's why. It's because people overfaults. So when they come to sell their business, they go, we can grow 30%, and you go, oh right, okay, fantastic. They're setting it up with 30%. Yeah. And then you look back and they've only grown 4% in the last three years. So why are they gonna go from 4% to 30%? Yeah, and it's just unrealistic. And so everybody can guess, uh why would someone do that? Is it because they want the earnouts to be a higher figure? Because if the Well, it's often set the other way as well. See, it's often set by the buyer, yeah, trying not to pay what they want to pay for it. So they'll set it too high in terms of, yeah, of course we'll pay you X amount for your business based on a 30% jump on your revenue, and they're never getting knowing they're never gonna get it. And sadly, people do look at that bottom number, and so you know how you structure your payments and everything else, people will look at what's the overall I'm gonna get. And if that overall is, oh, you've got to grow by 10%, 20%, 30%, they see, oh, I see that 30%, but the chances are they won't get there? No, but again, it depends. Like for me Can't impact the business. Well, can that impact it? So if someone's thinking they're 30% and they're um the the earnout period is is a year, and they're six, seven months into that period, running effectively the business still within FlowTech or Panet, and they look at it, the projection, they're not gonna hit it. Does that do people take the thought off the gas and go, I'm not gonna hit this target some realistic how do you manage that? I mean, I'll kick it through you fair. Never indeed through that, never actually had that scenario personally. You know, when I sold out of Excel, I didn't have a note. We were paid up front. And that was the MO of of the company that purchased us at that time. And why why would someone do that instead of you say that because they just wanted a their their strategy was hey you it's ours, mate, and we're gonna go in. Yeah, uh, also it's a way of you know, in those scenarios, it depends if you want the individuals to stick around or not. So the purchase that the acquisition we had of us was they wanted to remove all that top layer of none of the direct, none of the shareholders stays, none of the top management stays. You know, part of the reason for paying what they did was because they knew they were gonna get some recourse in the amount of money that was being, you know, salaries and stuff. So yeah, they they were happy to they were happy to let go that experience in order to recoup the money from a financial perspective. All of that expertise under that. Say no comment. So I'm gonna say no comments. Someone else says it, oh, no matter how no comment. I'm sure they thought it was brilliant. It's always good to see you uh to keep uh key key people there. And and and for you, I mean, wearing your sales director, who was Mr. Blones, um one of the businesses you quite in in uh in North Wales, yeah. Um he wasn't today's MD, but he he's kind of to today's wine before someone that you've seen skill set and and ability in and and transitioned in Zach and all changing. Do you know what? The way the reason that worked is because we did an earnout with his business. And so before I gave him that sales rep parole, we had a year of working with him, understand of him, understand his motivations. Because when you go through a deal process, people will say whatever you want to hear to get what they want, right? And actually, in that year process of that earnout, do you get to know that person? Can I work with them? We know we bought businesses before where I thought this would be a great person in a business, I realized we just can't work with it. It just it was a clash, right? And whereas with Wayne, we realized actually he'd add a lot of value to our business. And you know, not just monetary, but bringing in the knowledge he's got, bringing in up the the technical knowledge he's got around the product that we now provide. So it does work as well. So in terms of the kind of uh it's very interesting with report, it's kind of a it's a delicate subject. So we all know founders, entrepreneurs, then they sell their business, they have a hundred percent the intention to retire and move to the relax and to play golf, and whenever that bits are fed back into the industry, yeah, they don't want to do that, and invariably there's a non-compete where they can't tell me to things. When that bit expires, almost at the same time, sometimes founders decide to actually um retirement's not for me. I want to come back in and I'm going to start my own business. So I was flow tech and now I've low tech. Actually, that's not used that way. I'll tell you what, this is sorry, love. Now, good old telecom, and we are next in South Wales, and uh lots of competition down there, by the way. And we're gonna require business, we're gonna do all these things, and I'm gonna say fellow landlord because he eats brilliant, and I'm gonna do this, we'll do that. How much when you're acquiring a business, do you is it something that is gonna happen? You know it's gonna happen, you're trusting your business, or if you will if you know that that potentially is a risk. I mean, to you, Jay, when you're looking at it, repetition is well, would you factor in that? I mean, there must be a tackle territory for you there, like the rebirth of the business you bought, let's let's put it that way. Yeah, look, I think you've got a um a period of non-compete um that you set. Um, you know, that can be a period that is agreed between you all, it's got to be a fair period as well. And you've got that time to get to know those customers and build a better relationship with them and re-contract them, whatever you need to do, right? And so if that owner does come back in, you know, yes, they may take some of those customers on it, but hopefully within that three-year period or whatever, you've built that relationship back up uh with yourself. And if you haven't, you could argue, is it their fault that you've lost that client, right? You know, that would be my argument as well. But at the same time, like for me, I was in comms and networks, flow tech were more about IT. So for me, it was that I I didn't want to go back into what I was doing. I wanted to actually change and be something different. Um, and so for us, comms is more of a secondary product within our portfolio. I'm still doing that thing. We're still doing it. The last thing really for me on this, because this is I mean, MA and things like that, it's only going to increase. So actually, in the connectivity space, in terms of my wheel, where there's mergers, access to funds is a challenge. Funders only different carriers say, well, actually, we our assets worth this. Well, if we cut together, we might be worth more together, even uh, you've seen a recent uh netomnia per pending purchase where the list price is kind of two billion pounds, but I'm sure with your It was always gonna happen in Altnet, so wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you see so obviously you you two are not specific into that area, but from commentary in terms of that space where you've seen millions of billions come in probably over the last ten years, and you said it's almost one president he really in terms of the the private active cash that's come into last year from few providers to to multiple. You do see a consolidation insassively, yeah. They connected any side. Yeah, like if you were in there, is that the sort of approach you would be like? I think it's difficult, it's difficult. I think with altnets, there's there is gonna be a massive consolidation, as you said, and we've seen it in South Wales. We've got a provider, uh Augie, which you know invested millions of millions, went from sort of 20, 30 people to 300 people overnight, right? Take in lots of good people from South Wales, and all of a sudden now they're doing mass cells of people because they didn't hit the targets that they were set out for, the gold rusher stopped, and so naturally I think at some point somebody's gonna come in and and buy that asset, uh, you know, and it'll be again it'll be a consolidation of alt next. And eventually I think we'll end up with a virgin and a BT again, and they'll just buy up the alt next. That's my opinion of it. I totally agree, yeah. I totally agree. You speak to some of the altnets, I think they've all got that sort of same vision. I think it I think it has to. I think, you know, with the amount of investment going in, and like you say, there's it's there's too much money going in for them all to survive. I don't see how each of the individual altnets can work within those central areas. It has to, they all come under larger umbrellas. I just think that's a natural progression of what it has to do. I mean the sort of MSP spin, it's interesting. You've got side, you know, hard technology trying to make news. Maybe, maybe not, um historically there was other businesses with the choir on a really regular basis in not doing that anymore. Um do you see more larger businesses like the FlowTech, Conete Text, Italian Muse, where the acquisitions in this space ran or suck? Are there lots of businesses now who are kind of the owners of getting to a stage where they started in 2020, 1995, and they're kind of wanting to exit to retire and those sort of things? What sort of market like just deserves kind of a higher level? How about we joke, but okay. Um, it it's really active at the moment. Um, there's a lot of commerce companies up for sale, um, especially obviously with obviously the whole analog stretch shock coming in at the end of the year. So there's a lot of business owners who are absolutely terrified of what their business is gonna look like in less than 12 months. Yeah. And they can't understand from a valuation point of view that I'm not gonna pay several years forward when that revenue isn't gonna exist. And so, you know, what they've sat on for years is is sort of starting to come to an end for them, and the business will be will decrease naturally, right? So there's a lot of commerce business for sale, there's a lot of IT businesses for sale, but for us it's about being really picky about what we value and only really buying some really good businesses. So when we were smaller, we had to buy businesses that maybe we wouldn't buy today, but as we've grown as a business and matured, we've realized what it is we want, what is it we don't want. And so actually, I'd rather grow through more controlled um and a more mature approach than just sort of buying up everything and anything. Either. Yeah, totally. I totally agree with that, completely agree with that. Yeah. Um, there's a lot of, especially on the comms side, we don't do a lot of IT. IT might be one of those areas that we acquire into. Yeah. Uh um, there's a lot of the comms business that we talk to that are, I wouldn't say scares, that they're a little confused as to where the market is and where it's going to. They've got this old legacy base. They're not a lot of it, it's getting switched off. Quite sure how they transition from that traditional PBX type environment. So that's SaaS model. So there's a lot of like confusion and worry as to where. So they're the ones that are looking to Jackson out and move on before it completely disappears. Under I suppose one ETZ is that they're looking to have firing. We've got that legacy. They'll need to demonstrate to gents like yourselves that they have a boss, you have a structure, and how they're gonna go through that over the coming years, and they're also factoring any any sort of uh deviation. So thank you so much, Jay. Very welcome, Mr. Nodgers. Pleasure, thank you, Jay. Can I just say I love your go fast stripe in the head as well? I wish you had it when we did the cooking, by the way. Yeah, they've been brilliant. This is this is what I get. So normally we do these episodes, and so you for a lot. I'm trying to, you know, bring your youth back on you. Yeah, I'm trying I'm trying to intellectually move for nine IQs to follow there, too. And uh this strike will definitely do it. Definitely do it. Yeah, it's been a pleasure, and I'm an AUK's million different things to a million people. But I just feel really fortunate to have two people and I go through that entrepreneurial buying businesses, the sort of pitfalls, there's some real value there, I thought, in terms of earnout, advisors, um, models or types of businesses that you're looking at. Um, obviously, if you are looking to sell your business in our space, then maybe these guys would be interested. Uh I definitely wouldn't. I would fail the credit, but thank you all very much. Cheers, Clay.