Chewing the Channel: In conversation with Sharon McDermott

Will’s been talking to Sharon McDermott, Founder and Managing Director at Trenches Law for a much needed ‘outsider’ insight into the UK channel. This is a good one, exploring her remarkable journey to becoming one of the telecoms industry's most respected legal specialists. 

In a wide-ranging chat covering everything from wayleave woes to personal inspirations, watch now to hear Sharon discuss…

• The power of kindness: true partnerships are tested not when things are going well, but when organisations face their toughest moments.
• An unconventional path to law: originally pursuing a career in languages, she discovered her passion for the legal profession by chance, proving there’s no single path to success.
• Transforming an industry: in her 17 years at Virgin Media, Sharon played a key role in major infrastructure projects, gaining leadership experience and helping drive transformational change in telco.
• Spotting an opportunity: seeing a gap in the market during the Altnet boom, Sharon founded Trenches Law to provide specialist legal expertise around wayleaves and telecoms infrastructure.
• Business as a risky business: growing Trenches Law meant taking risks, including hiring her first employee and convincing her husband to leave a corporate career and join the business.
• The importance of continuous learning: Sharon’s a passionate advocate for leadership development, coaching and personal growth. Programmes like Goldman Sachs 10,000 Small Businesses have helped shape her long-term vision.
• Why wayleaves matter: as networks grow and consolidate, wayleaves have become critical assets. Sharon explains how they underpin network value, provide legal certainty and play a crucial role in future acquisitions and investment.

Website: www.elevate.uk/wholesale

LinkedIn: Will Goodall

LinkedIn: Teigan Kemp

Phone: 0330 058 9530

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Welcome to Who'd Afford It? We've made Series 4. Um, close to 100,000 views on LinkedIn, nearly 600 downloads, and I've finally been able to secure for the first episode of Series 4 Sharon McDermott, aka Shazza, the MD founder of Trenches Law. Anyone in our industry, ranging from alt nets to wholesalers to resellers, associate Sharon with two things super super nice, genuine person, and a absolute way leave leader. So I'm really excited to get into this. Obviously, we've got to get through the bits of why did you start your own business and also why did you move from Liverpool to Hampshire? And we're sure we'll cover a lot of that. So thank you very much for watching. Hope you enjoy. I'm glad you're wearing that dress because I was I was gonna wear something similar and I thought, do you know what, Will? Not today, you don't have the figure, and looking at you, I'm glad that I didn't wear that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Well, I tell you what, it's um it was sunny this morning, but I forgot how grim it is up north.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Oh literally, I drove to to Manchester this morning. Anyone works in Manchester or goes to Manchester, it just changes overnight, doesn't it? In two seconds.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

I've got a Broly there, I've got a rain mark, I've got I've got another pair of shoes as well, just in case it's you have to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

You can have sun in the morning, snow in the afternoon, rain at night, and we that's that's how we I think that's why we're always so happy because we've got the northerners.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Yeah, yeah, and hard as well. Very well put up with any weather.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Yeah, I've except myself. I'm probably as my wife would say, soft as anything. A lot of people don't I you I don't think you'll even remember this.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

So I'm older than you.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Listen, you look younger though.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Your wife's trained you well, hasn't she?

SPEAKER_02 1:57

No, my wife's my wife's the reason for great hairs. Um I remember your name at Virgin, because we we both were Virgin at the same time, but you were significantly higher up than than likes of me. Selling broadband didn't really need legal expertise, and which was I always do it. But I knew your name because there's always you know deals being announced and things like that. But shortly after that, I was working for ITS and um I used LinkedIn for personal work and use it for everything. And I put a post, Darcy, my eldest, who's now 15. 15 which is crazy. She was due to go to primary school, and as probably a lot of parents get, it wasn't you know, her first choice. Sorry, you live 0.2 metres outside of that area. So I put a LinkedIn thing up because I was you know complaining. You reached out to me randomly and said, I senior post, can we help? Probably like I want to get involved. And I was a partner account manager, I had no influence on anything, there was no business sort of rationale, it is just you saw it and thought that's wrong, we want to help. And I've always had that in my head, kind of, and it's supposed it's for anyone watching this. If you see things like that and you and you you do the right thing, I think a lot of time it it it comes back, and it was it's important I'd talk about that because I don't think many people would have done what you did. I don't even know if you remember it because it's like.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

I do, I do. We we'll help anyone, and don't tell my husband because he is in charge of the finances, but I do a lot for uh pro bono. Um and I've done met I'm doing quite a few things at the moment where I know you know some of the um altnets really don't have any money, but and they need the money, and you know, people are not paying them and they should be paying them. Um because people have long memories as well, and you you've got to help people anyway. That that's that's what I'm all about. And um my son um he he he goes to the Silesian in Farnborough and he did a um um a quiz night in our local and raised over a thousand pounds, which was the most anyone's raised, and they've asked me to be um a trustee, and I'm really excited to do it because I don't know whether it's a new path I'm gonna go down or whether it's just me supporting them in in addition to what I'm doing. But you've got to help people um who are in difficult positions because one day I know I'll need help because you're never on the up all the time, you do come down as well. Um, and it's really important to me that you be kind.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Yeah, I I agree with that 100%. I think it's it's always a lesson, isn't it? Yeah, so it was there was a Will Smith thing saying once uh be kind to the people on your way up because you'll meet them on your way down and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Yeah, there was one of the altn um alt nets that I won't say who, but you'll probably know. Um but they they went into liquidation and I dropped them a note to say, look, you know, we have worked with you, we're here for you in good times and bad times. Do you need anything from us free of charge? And we trenches were the only supplier that reached out like that. Um and they've remembered that and now they're you know back on track and we're talking to them. But I learned that years and years ago from um a partner, his name was um Tom Whedon at um Simmons and Simmons in the telecoms department. And I I think it was um um I can't remember, it was um it was a company, a telecoms company, that went out of business. And I remember him saying the same thing. This is when they see the value in suppliers, not just the good times, you offer help in the bad times. And I've always taken that with me.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

It's a really good point because I think I think with anything the the true test of a partnership is when the chips are down, how how we act. Because everyone, it's all great when everything's great, and you're having clinking champagne glasses, and you know, I know a lot of our a lot of resellers will have different partnerships, and it's only really when the chips are down and how either the supplier reacts or the partner reacts that you understand a true, yeah partnership, and kind of starting with that deliberately, what's quite amazing really about your journey is you could be sat opposite me, the head of legal for O2 business, having done uh significant time, great salary, great pension, great everything, profile, all those things. But for some reason, inexplicably, during your journey, you've said, actually, I'm gonna go at my own and and start start my own business, yeah. Where I don't have the branded virgin which is known across the world behind me. What I'm curious about is where did those sort of entrepreneurial seeds start? So, like when you were growing up, obviously you're very clever, you you know, I believe you're fluent in a few languages, done a little bit. Only when I've had a few things. I'm fluent in the the language of nonsense, unfortunately, and that's it. Um can you there are points when you're kind of growing up? I mean, what with what your parents did, with your family around you, were the were the entrepreneurs there or people that were kind of determined to achieve dreams? What what planted them seeds?

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Remember, I'm from Liverpool, so I'm streetwise. Um, you know, my brothers are entrepreneurs in their own way, maybe not in the right way. Um but actually, no, it was I think I think I only got the confidence late on in life. Um I knew that I wanted to start my own business and I needed to believe in myself, and and actually I think just going back to what we were saying, my network of people who you know I'd done loads of deals for in the past, remember all those sales guys in in Tele West and Virgin, and they were all there to help me, and it just gave me the confidence to keep going. And um, and yeah, and and I I know that I think in a different way um than normal law firms, you know. If we've just had a call with our um marketing team on the way down up to Manchester, um, but I think it's about doing things your own way and being authentic as well. And you know, I do pride trenches on being down to earth and not being stiff and you know, having all those long i legal words that intimidate people.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

And had you seen kind of for your formative time, because if we're so you would you I joined NGL TeleUS 2005, 2006.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

And if I say it was a brilliant environment training and all that stuff, but to say it was probably very different to how it is now, the I thought the I would say the ratio of men to women, particularly in sales, was 90-95% men, suits, kind of elite sort of personas. Yeah, it wasn't the most um kind of the environment it is now. It would it was you must have seen some stuff when you're there where you're constantly picking up I wouldn't do that, that person told me that way, I would do this. Is it was that where a lot of the sort of learnings that have that have fed you well since?

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Um yeah, I uh because you know I was doing the sales at at Virgin, and you with sales you do the products, product development and the terms and conditions, etc., to go with that. And a lot of the time I'm I'm not technical, honestly. I am I can just about turn my computer on. RIT support. I think there's a a button that when I phone them, they don't even ask what's wrong, they just automatically remote it. So I learned not to be scared of asking questions and not to be scared of them asking them to draw me diagrams so I could understand things.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

I think part of that was that Liverpool upbringing where yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

I was shy at first, but actually there's no point being shy. You've just got to, if you want to do a good job, you've got to understand it. You can't pretend that you understand what you you're working on. Um, but yeah, I've I have become a lot stronger and a lot more vocal now, and it's really, you know, it's important to me, um, particularly for women in the business. And I think that's one thing Elevate do is really, you know, they really raise the profile of the women um and they do it really well, and the women are really strong. Um, and yeah, I I love being in the company, but yeah, it it I think Liverpool and that street wisdom has taught me a lot. I think it's just instilled in me, and also being part Irish as well. That that's um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

You're from Liverpool and you're part Irish.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

I know, I just got my Irish passport.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

I've oh yeah. Yeah, it is I've I've well my mum's I suppose the I think there's something like six million people with Irish. I mean my mum's Irish, so I'm I'm tempted with the passport thing. I want to I don't want to be waiting eight hours.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

We went to Portugal and there was a queue of about three hours, and they asked whether anyone had a European passport, so I was like waving. And Terry, my husband's like, Can I come with her? But they let him through this time.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

But yeah, it's definitely a matter of a lot more Irish passports after the last few years than my son's just waiting on his now.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

There you go. I need to do it.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

You do. It's easy once you understand.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah, I'd still are, yeah, I need to do it. But my my one week a year abroad in Myorca with my three girls is uh I'm happy just waiting in a queue where I'm not having to entertain them, so yeah, probably. And so the legal bit, were you always gonna go into to law? No. Because because I've met your brother and he is a top, top, top guy, but and I I mean this with I love him, but you wouldn't put you and him together. Yeah. So he's he's very entrepreneurial, very, you know, uh hardworking and driven and all those amazing things, but I would not say that his sister would be, you know, in the legal profession, yeah, on Inca, on Wisp on all these boards. Like you wouldn't associate it.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Oh, I pushed you into law, was it?

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Um it was so I originally wanted to be an air hostess, um, and I got to the final interview of BA, but unfortunately I took my friend at the time to the interview with me, and it was in a hotel, so she was waiting at the bar for me with a glass of wine every time there was a break. So yeah, I got through, and then I think they thought, no, she's she's not for us. Um so they're nowhere the exits, they're everywhere. I was heartbroken. Um and had that been kind of this is what I want to do, be a hostess, that's gonna be Yeah, because I I spoke the languages as well. Um, but then I went um temping actually in Cable Northwest, and I met um uh the UK Fibre Awards on Fri on Thursday night, just gone. I met Ian Fishwick, who was the MD of Cable Northwest, um, so 35 years ago, the last time I saw him. Um and in Liverpool, it was first time round they were building all of the um or digging all of the cables for cable TV. And I think everyone in Liverpool, bar a few, were falling down the trenches and injuring themselves. So we got all of these personal injury claims in, and I ended up having to um manage them and work with the insurer's solicitors um to defend them and get all of the the evidence and what have you. And um, and I um I thought I really like doing this, and I loved the solicitors and you know how they were dealing with it. So I decided there and then that I was going to um convert my um language degree into a law degree. So I did that, um, and then I went to um Berryman's Lace Moor in Liverpool for a yeah um and then came back down south. Well, came down south to Tele West then as a paralegal, and then from there I qualified as a solicitor. So it was a lot, and and I didn't do it the normal way, and I was you know quite late when I um qualified. And that's really important for me for young people to know that you don't have to do things the normal way, there are different routes to be what you want. You you don't have to do that normal route.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

It's a really good point, and see it with kind of entrepreneurs, and you know, I'm even on the chat with my daughter at the minute. I don't know what I'm gonna do at college, and I'm like, it doesn't like do things you want to enjoy, but you know, life will take you in different, yeah, different angles. So I guess the first thing is moving from Liverpool down south, how long did it take for the family to speak to you again? Were they a bit our Shavans left us?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Well, it was quite funny because at the time um my mum, thinking she was being helpful, got a load of carrier bags and put all my bras in one and stapled bras on the front of the carrier bag, knickers on another, knickers, and she and I went with a load of carrier bags to bag dancers. Um and actually I found it really quite hard at first because I really did miss um Where were you living when you went? Were you kind of in Biggin Hill? I went to Biggin Hill because um I I met someone as well, didn't last very long, but that that was a good thing. Um and we were working in Woking, so it was it was a bit of a journey, and um I really missed Liverpool, but then I got used to it and and yeah, and you know the family come down to see me and they think it's a big holiday. They still think I live in London, I live in Hampshire, um, but they think it's like a holiday for them, so it's um it's really nice, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

It's good that I think it it's obviously helped you as well, kind of coming out of your comfort zone, because again, you're like you can see a threat where Virgin, you could have stayed, still be there now, yeah, but you came out of your comfort zone. Liverpool, a lot of people, because it's an amazing city and there's so much going on, stay in and around Liverpool their whole lives, and and they're very, you know, like Manchester's a long way. Yeah, conversely, a lot of people in Manchester. So to do that as a you know, young and and starting your career is a it's a big jump.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, yeah. It was it was tough, and you know, I miss my family and I've got three brothers and miss them, and um but you've got to do what you want to do.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

You you you just knew this was this makes me happy, this is what I want to do.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Yeah, yeah. And things worked out in the end, and I think the things always do work out as long as you've got a good heart. Um, things always will work out.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

So you're kind of progressing through Virgin. So you're helping on bids, then you were kind of we we touch on so anyone that that follows Virgin will know um there was a not insignificant investment, Project Lightning, where thousands and thousands of property well kilometres, fiber, build, network expansion. You had a team of close to 200 people, and you'll have gone from um if you think, and this is probably the bit sometimes that that I find amazing, you've gone in the space of a relatively short period of time going to British Airways interview, telling people that the the the exit's in the wrong area, going, oh bugger, to relocating to a different side of the country, discovering a love for law, adding that to your qualifications, and then orchestrating and playing an integral role in probably one of the biggest investments in our industry, yeah, um, that was transformational and probably the start of real cash coming into the industry.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Yeah, it was so so uh before I moved over, um I it was Ricky Um Hobden who was reporting into Paul Buttery, who was the COO. Um, so before I left Legal, um I was in um basically I was the um head of Legal for Paul Buttery and his SLT. Um so we did all of the contracts for civil works, for planners, for architecture. There was a lot of two-pie going on at the time, um, call centres offshore. So we did all of those and then I moved over and we amalgamated all of the Wayleave teams um and looked after the um statutory um and the compliance. Um just I think that was because of my legal background.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Um and I think it was just because of your legal background.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Um I don't know, to be honest with you. I I think so.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

I don't think it was just because of legally legal. Being an expert, something's great, but being approachable and being able to translate it into a uh digestible way, particularly for people like Paul Buttery at the time. Yeah, they don't have time to kind of focus on an individual thing. They need that that person's got their shit together. I'm gonna fix that. Wayleave, any way leave, sharing there, yeah. They're kind of decisions at 100 miles an hour that you're probably doing now as an MD. Um, and it's interesting kind of being moved from one bit to way leave, which you know, we had um Darren Zitron on uh talking about way leaves and you know, kind of segueing a little bit, but way leaves have always been as a salesperson the bane of our lives. We hate them, we don't know why they exist. We think the landlord's being unreasonable, we think um they shouldn't be there and it's prevention, and if there's no way you leave it, it's uh and he kind of opened my eyes a little bit saying, Well, actually, the landlord, for example, on a an MBU, a multi-business unit or multi-dwelling unit, whatever it may be, that's assets worth millions. They need to be dealt with in a particular way that understands that this is their asset and you're not gonna bosh it around in in sort of will goodall terms. And I kind of went, well, actually, yeah, if I had that.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

I disagree with that. Do you? No, completely, yeah. Because I think it's really important that any tenants, whether they're residents or you know, business tenants, that they have the right to choose whichever broadband provider or other telco um service that they want. Um, and I don't think it's for the landlord, and it's certainly not under the Communications Act either. I don't think it's for the landlord to dictate which operator or two operators are in the building. Um, so for example, um with the old copper, you know, in London we'd I'd have clients from trenches, and they wouldn't let in any of the alt nets because they had open reach copper and it was just so outdated and it wasn't doing what the tenants wanted. And they they couldn't. You see a lot of that then. Yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Still see it now.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah, yeah. And there is a provision in the um communications act. I c I can never remember it. I think it's one three four or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

I think it's one three five. Oh, is it?

SPEAKER_00 22:02

I've taught you well. Um watching a new matter. It says that um a a tenant should be able to choose choose whichever broadband provider it wishes. And to the extent that the landlord says no, that decision is void. So, you know, there is a recognition that the landlord and it it you know it's it it's just really important for businesses nowadays to have um fast broadband. So I I I I do appreciate the fact that the the building is the landlord's and believe me, the landlords are very well indemnified under in those agreements if anything were to go wrong. But a lot of it is pass, you know, it's not like they're it's not like they're building water pipes under the building or anything, they're just trying to get in to um to provide a broadband service. So and there's a lot of things that the um operators can't do under those whale leaves, and that's accepted, so yeah, don't get me on that topic.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

So well I uh you've you've easily swayed me down back again, aren't you wrong? Uh as salesman in me's coming back out, and then obviously the this is the bit that I still don't understand. So help me with this. Working for the COO at Virgin, you know, roles just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. You came in at you know, this level, you virtually top, you'd be legal counsel for you know Virgin, Liberty Global, huge, huge organisation takes involved. You could be you could be in Denver where head offices, you could be doing all sorts, but instead, and it probably coincides with the first kind of city fiber-ish, we're kind of alt netty little bit 2016-17. Yeah, you've gone. I want to run my own business, I want to worry about national insurance, employers' national insurance, I want to worry about tax, I want to um I'm gonna have to enhance my sales skills and networking skills, I'm gonna have to do some marketing, make sure there's enough cash in the business, I'm gonna have to learn all these different things. I want to do that, yeah, and not the other. What what prompted that? Was it always the goal? I'm gonna build my network up to a point where I can go it alone, or did you just think it it wasn't, if I'm honest with you.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

It was um things were changing at Virgin at that time. So Paul Buttery left. He he he was a a very intelligent, great man in my books. Um, Rob Evans came along, he then appointed Julie um under him, and things were changing. They want different people in the business, um, and it was just an opportunity for me then. And even when I left, I still wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And I was approached by um uh community fibre actually to would I go and do their way leaves. Um, and I wasn't sure whether I I wanted to go and work for someone else or or maybe do a bit of consultancy. So I went and met Jeremy, Jeremy, um, and he's lovely as well. And I I agreed that I would do a six months with him, and they've got a great guy called Tim Stranick there as well, and he's very well respected in in the industry and particularly the public sector side of things from a way leaf perspective. Um, and then I did the six months there, and that's when I that's when all of the little altnets started popping up and the investments came. And I knew that these um altnets, yes, they had investment, but they didn't have a a lot of money at that time. And I also they I knew that they wouldn't have their own legal counsel at that time because they were brand new, and that's when I thought, well, actually, why not try this? And so I set up trenches.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

And I suppose as well, you're during your tenure at Virgin, you're seeing people that you've worked with popping up at these old in obviously decent positions, and you're thinking, I can speak to them. I know there's I know there's a a need, yeah. I've I know the business well, I know the industry incredibly well, and I know they're going to be running into absolutely their expanding network, they're going to need to connect those customers or even just build the network in terms of.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

The way leaves were the last things they thought about, to be honest with you. Um and they were they've always been seen as problematic. Um, and that's why there's not a lot of MDUs built at the moment, because it's either the barrier is the way leave, the fees that the landlord solicitors want, um, or the technical.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Do you think sometimes landlords are are monetizing to generate cash versus there's actually a genuine reason for those costs?

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah, definitely. We um I was just about to do um uh a a bulk way leave for um a public authority, and that public authority wanted something like 2,500 for every prem on the estate. Um we've got another one where it's just a standard way leave and the lawyers want four and a half thousand pounds and they forget that they yes, there's investment, but the operator is putting that infrastructure in for free um and probably only going to generate between 30, I don't know, 80 pounds a month, depending on business or residential. And and they think the operators have got deep pockets and they haven't, and you know, they there's budgets that they have to follow. And it it's quite sad really because I think we would have hit the government um ambition sooner had they not been I say greedy, I I see it as greedy. Um there's no need for uh solicitors to be charging that amount for away leave. It's it's just not on. And we always push back on fees, but solicitors sometimes say, Well, we're not going to give you a breakdown, that's the fee. And it's it's not right.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

And is that it's really interesting point? So you kind of in your 10 years and I'm I probably I I assume you'll have seen it with Virgin even more so because they'll have gone Virgin, great, happy days has it increased or has it just been a constant battle where there's these costs coming out and it's preventing ultimately investment, because obviously we know an area where which is fibre will you know it'll drive economic growth.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Yeah, yeah. And it almost prevents Yeah, it it's I think it is getting worse. Um it's it's more, I would say, landlords with larger estates um and public authorities actually. So they want consideration on top of the law, legal fees and the surveyor fees. So sometimes the the operator can be paying £10,000 to £15,000 for a bulkway leave and commercially, it's why would they? Why why would they? Who else is going to build there? So in the example I gave you, the operator decided actually we'll just we won't build you and we'll go right past, we'll build past you. They won't go back again. So, you know, it it they're not doing the residents any favours.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

It's a bit like and anyone that's done this journey will know the house. If you go from Manchester to Yorkshire, there's a there's the motorway, and there's a white house in the middle where he uh the story is the owner wouldn't move, was off the lot of money, no, I'm staying here. So they went right, we'll just go around you, and now there's a house in the middle of beautiful area, but motorway either side. And I suppose it's a similar principle. If you're preventing that, suddenly you could lose tenants. Because it's an interesting one though, Sharon, because a lot of the time we've always thought a landlord or uh of public authority would actively want fibre either in their building or under their pavements, if you like, yeah, to stimulate growth, to be a USP, to uh attract tenants, all those different things.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

Yeah. When when we f when I first started at Virgin, we used to go out. Um there used to be a guy very, very well respected in the public authority, he's a very good friend of mine, a new Vedi. And we used to use him to get his introductions into um housing associations, and at first really they wanted to see what the value for money was, um, and it was more about giving people um maybe who haven't got laptops, maybe one or two laptops in the community centre or the library, or being able to teach them digital skills. Um, and we used to talk about having the the broadband, um, it would put on I can't remember now, it was about five, seven, ten percent of the value of a property. Um, but then I've seen the change where actually they want the card hard cold cash. Yeah, so um, yeah, and and I don't I I think it's unfair for tenants and businesses, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

And you kind of with the I guess the way you sped there in terms of being introduced into opportunities and things like that. Obviously, when you when you started trenches, you'd work with salespeople and supported on on deals and things. What how did you build your initial customer list? Was it through your black book, if you like, where you saw that need? And my next question to that, it's logical, is at what point then were you working with those people and you realised right, Sharon, you need to really push out to market and and and not hustle but you know, work on a sales strategy for my business?

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Yeah, um well you you'd get a lot of help from mm the likes of a new. Um the sales guys were really helpful, and to be honest with you, the sales guys all we you you we always think sales guys all they want is the commissioned, but actually they were quite helpful. Um, and the tenants are helpful as well, you know, if they they want so it it it really helps if the if an operator has got um a register of interest in the pro in the service, um, because you can the re the tenants can help you push the landlord and get the landlord to speak to you. Um, but yeah, it it it was about the black book and um and networking really and really understanding what the landlords want or didn't want, and and I I think it was really important, and I think this is why we were quite successful that we were very courteous with the landlords. So, yes, we'd get the way leave, but we'd book um an appointment, for example, for the installers to go in. We'd ask if was there a car park, we'd make sure that they had, you know, covers over their boots, um, just to make sure that they weren't, you know, dragging mud up the carpets and but that was the way you were you were raised and the way that you've always been.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

That's added, that's almost been um a superpower in a an industry where it's no, you need to do it. Yeah, yeah, you know, kind of macho sort of approach.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yeah, just just yeah, we've got it now, we don't need to speak to you. Yeah. And and really phoning up afterwards and just making sure everything was fine because they'll remember that. Um and yeah, it's um that's that's ri a really important aspect, I think, for landlords.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Tries a lot of referrals, I imagine.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Was there a point with trenches? Because you've got employees, you've got office and all these things. What was it like hiring people?

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Sharon's moved from Liverpool, yeah. She's gone to Hampshire, yeah, family brothers are away, hiring people.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

The first how how did you deal with that? Because you your business is obviously growing.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

What what did how did you react? How did you deal with that?

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Was that it the hardest thing was um taking the first person on. So the first person was a lady called Georgina Rudak, and she worked for me at Virgin as a way leave manager, and she wanted to be a solicitor. Um anyway, we took her on, and um I mean she was great, she's a qualified lawyer now. Um, but that was the hardest thing. Well, I'll always remember we went to my mum's for Christmas, and um Terry Terry, who worked at Virgin as well, he was at wholesale um in wholesale, and um I remember being in my mum's and he actually um resigned from work without telling me to come and join me. And I my heart sank, and I thought, oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Is this had had you hired um the first higher week?

SPEAKER_00 35:02

I'd hired George and then he he did that. Um and my heart sank, and I thought, oh my god, what has he done? We need we need two incomes here because I'm not sure how it's gonna go. Um, but it it it worked, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

That's some vote of confidence.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

It was again similar to you, he could quite easily have stayed and you know, kind of either stayed to the point where there was an option for redundancy and got a significant payoff, or just carried on and then done the the telecoms dance with different ones. But he's kind of he's seen something in you in your business. Yeah, I hope.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

I think he has, yeah. Yeah, and he he looked after all of the way leave. So at the beginning, he was he had all of the way leave teams and I just had the legal people. Um I I don't think I'm a great manager um because I like to just get on with the work, um, whereas he was very good and we had HR and you know we had the a structure in the way leave side of things. Um so yeah, that went really well. And then the investment sort of recently stopped, but we're now seeing things pick up again. Um, and we're talking to quite a number of um potential clients or people that we've worked with in the past.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

It's that it's that scary time, isn't it, when you started a business. We to unfortunate speaker to so many business owners like yourself where they're growing and you can it's almost like there's a little flame, yeah, and you're kind of trying to you want it to grow, and the wrong hire in the early days could extinguish it, and all those amazing relationships you've built with customers, partners, suppliers, and all that can be or the right hire, and you start throwing more fuel on it, and that's and it's it's an amazing story that you're putting up going, right? Do you know what I feel this is this is for me. So were you how did you negotiate salary? That's the key question for me.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

I I didn't get involved in that. I left it that to HR and Terry. It's I just looked after the legal people.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

You can pay don't pay him more than me. I'm taking out and he needs to be on. Yeah, yeah, no It's good having someone you trust though, implicitly. I think every you know I was speaking to different I mean and and there's always kind of not a double act, that's the wrong because that kind of brings up comic comedic.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

But having two people that balance each other out, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

A lot of entrepreneurs need kind of that organized focus because you you're thinking I'm already thinking three years' time, you know, we've got plans, we're just about to um launch a subscription service actually, because just because of the economic um environment, a lot of the managed service providers, resellers, wisps, they just don't have the the cash flow to pay for legal support. So we're just launching a subscription service over 12 months and they can choose which layer um they want. Um and then yeah, I'm I'm looking ahead, want to go to America, um in Ireland, um, potentially in Germany. Um and and Terry is the one who has to take those slow steps and get everything lined up because I'm way, way away.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Because it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think sometimes if there's if there's two Sharons, then nothing would get done. And it and and potentially you kind of go, yeah But then if there's two Terries, the other you're kind of edging forward. So having the two together it's important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 38:40

I think we learned very quickly that we couldn't argue in front of our staff.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

Um what do you do when you because you know, like I I was growing up, my parents would be like, mustn't argue in front of the kids.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

So they go downstairs and you'd be like, yep, they're arguing.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

It was just on code words. No, it we we learned very, very quickly um that we couldn't have digs at each other. I mean, we'd there'd be, I don't know, we only had about nine people then. Um but yeah, we learned very quickly that we we we shouldn't do this. And we have uh we we've been helped, we've had coaches each, and I've still got a coach now.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Um like a development like a leadership.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Yeah, exactly. I think that's really important as well. Um but yeah, we we we spoke about it and we we we we don't do it now at all.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

And and how do you I suppose how do you turn home and work not into work 24-7? Yeah. That must be really difficult at the start maybe are you able to as soon as you get through the front door, yeah. W what you do this weekend?

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Um yeah, um we we do. Um we go to the pub. Terry's so Terry will give up drinking for say ten weeks, which that bores me. But then I'll give up after his first two weeks, and then he'll, you know, go back on it. So we're yeah, we we take the dogs for walks, we um we go to the pub, we've got a lot of friends where we live, we go in the hot tub, you know. We'll do and he's always got a project on, he's building up a gola at the moment with a load of flowers and our own um vineyard.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

So um yeah, he's is that from is that the inspiration from the uh the women in channel event last year at the uh the vineyard? You've gone right. I like that balfur. I don't have as much land as the Balfour in, but we can still do it.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

Yeah, that that was that's the case. So yeah, he's um so he's he's nearly done that now. It'd probably be finished by the time we get home today. But yeah, it's it's quite easy and we've got a son and yeah, it's uh we have no problem in in in that at all.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

And then obviously, and this is why I was nervous before, because I'm I'm I'm going on um I've told you so I'm going on a panel at Connected Britain on MDUs. Oh and there's legal counsel and all these people and I looked and I thought intellectually I'm well out of my depth. And I thought I know Sharon. She's really approachable and I thought, let's do some research. And you've only gone and recently was it the um uh Oxford qualification?

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Honestly, I recommend it to everyone.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Run your own business and go, do you know what?

SPEAKER_00 41:27

I need further or I f I want further qualifications and Because it was we were we were doing really well. Goldman Sachs Goldman Sachs, yeah, the 10k small businesses. The it's the best thing I've ever done. It is amazing. Um but we weren't really ha we didn't really have a plan. Um and so I wanted a plan that we could implement and stick with. And you know, we're both getting old now. Um not you, me and Terry.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

No, I am you, don't worry.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

And um, so I wanted that plan in place and I just learned so much and made so many friends for life, actually. Um and yeah, I came out with a three-year plan, and it's the best thing I've ever done. It was brilliant, and it wasn't too time consuming, but it really opened my eyes. Really opened my eyes.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

It's a big thing for a business owner to do that. A lot of times, business owners, you know, three, four, five, six years, been successful, well known in the industry to go, do you know what? I need I want it.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Yeah. Well, you don't know what you don't know, that's the thing. And people can be really arrogant. Um, you know, I'm looking at the the city law firms and I'm thinking, how on earth have they done that? And you know, we we've got a different market, we're a small law firm. Um, and but how did they do it, you know? Probably with a lot of financial backing, probably. Um, but I you know, I have got goals, and I, you know, eventually I do want to sell the business, and Terry wants to sell and and retire. So, you know, that's the plan to to get us there.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

It's really um amazing thing to do, and and I assume as well with the other there'll be other business owners as well. So, again, the same theme as at Virgin and the Star Trenches, the the black book is there and and you're helping them, they're helping you. And yeah, and you I suppose you've you've got that collective aim, which is good for business, but also from a personal point of view, I imagine it's quite inspirational where you've got people to bounce ideas off.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Oh, 100%. So y they take 72 people each cohort, and there's two cohorts each year.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

There must be thousands and thousands of them.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

And it's in America, it's in France, um, and once you do it, you become part of that alumni network, um, right across the world. But you get put in a group of six people including yourself, um, completely different businesses. And they are I know they're my friends for life. And we meet regularly and we bounce ideas off each other. They help each other, I help them, they help me, and just a real shoulder to cry on because they go through the same things. It's just because I do law and one of them owns a football camp over in Manchester, actually. One of them gets student data, and one's got um uh um wine shops and whatever, and one's a growth expert. They have the same problems, it just doesn't matter which industry you're in. That you you know, you come up with the same problems.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

Yeah, I think that's uh I always say to well, unfortunate when I sit opposite entrepreneurs with businesses, it's a lot of the time you're in your bubble, yeah, and you don't think that this the things that are impacting you are also impacting other businesses. Because when we we do events and you have business owners speaking together and they're like, bloody hell, Sean, I didn't realise you had that problem with XYZ.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

I have the same thing. I thought it was to do with me or my style of leadership or our aims as a business. It's actually you know relief to almost talk about it. Kind of fast forwarding a little bit now. So we've got obviously COVID and the alt nets kind of exploding, um, billions and billions of pounds coming into that. From a way leave perspective, there's been some topical things to talk about. Obviously, we've had I think what we're talking about now, there's there must be the vast majority of certainly cities with fibre and and kind of all those good things. There have been instances where some altnets have perhaps not used a shaving and kind of said, well, way leaves is fine, we'll just crack on, and there's been fines and things like that. Your view on the market as we look at it now, how do you see that kind of playing out? Do you think altnets are gonna be a little bit more rogue, or do you think actually way leaves is this more solid solid way of growing a business through the proper channels?

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Um so I my take on it is that I mean, we we deal with trespass anyway. If you haven't got a way leave, it's a trespass. Um so we will help companies who have trespassed, innocently trespassed, um, or purposely trespassed for that matter. Um, but I think that you know, eventually these alt nets are going to either sell or amalgamate, and the way leaves are really the security of the network in the ground on when it's on private land.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

That asset isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 46:42

It's an asset, yeah. Um, and you know, the people will be do when their due diligence is being done, that way leave needs to be with the As built.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

Um retrospective way leaves as well.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Yeah, you yeah, yeah, you can. Um so retrospective, where there's a trespass, we tend to go retrospective and forward in perpetuity if we can. Um but yeah, the it it's the asset in and it goes alongside the network. Um so I think if it were me, it would be really important to do things properly. But I understand that there are commercial decisions to be made as well that actually the budgets might not stretch. But I think you know, with risks like that, you have to you have to know potentially how to mitigate them or you know how you're gonna deal with them if you're not sure. Because that's the pressure point, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 47:35

We're talking about now the altnets, its um connections. Live customers are essential as a metric. I think probably when we were first looking at it, it was kilometres built, yeah, then it went to premises past, now it's actually connected premises. Now there's a strong argument to say connected premises should have probably featured a bit sooner in this sort of focus, and it's really interesting when you talk about the value of a business, their connections, how way leave underpins that and wayleave actually adds a value.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Do you see a world where, and maybe you're seeing it already, where an altnet is saying, right, well, we've got to do a wayleave, but there's going to be an asset to our business that if we do sell or merge, it'll bump our value up for want of a better description, or let us hold the value that we want.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Yeah, I I think so. I mean, I'm not really knowledgeable about uh, you know, selling an an altnet, but I I think it it it goes with the territory. It you know that there is no trespass, so therefore there's no liability coming your way. Um but there might be indemnities, I don't know, in in the in the um You don't nothing worse, imagine if you would buy a business, you lift the bonnet up. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

There's a lawsuit, there's this, there's that, you're the it's gonna either put you off or you're gonna go over that price I was gonna pay you, Sean.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

Yeah. And take a couple of zeros off and we're gonna go back to the when um in the olden days in Telewest, and I think it's probably the same in open reach and city fiber, um before digitization, a lot of the whale leaves were just on paper and stuck in boxes all over the country. Um and it that was uh every time we got a new client, I would say to them, make sure you're putting them on the system because otherwise it just costs far too much if you need to go back and do it. But I think the code powers, you know, the company's got code powers and the whaleys, I think that's a really strong company um that that you know someone would want to invest in or buy.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

No, that makes sense because uh you know I've kind of touched on before, there have been some really well publicised cases, and I think you know, any altnet you you you're you're looking at a few things at the minute with the market, you're looking at active connections, they need to go in smoothly, cost of delivery needs to be as short as possible. So again, way leaves important. So you you've turned me around. I was I was I was I was on the landlord side, you know. You're doing damage now, uh elevator's gonna be destroyed. But no, I agree with what you're saying, the salesperson and me's talking, but yeah, I can see that being very supportive of the country in terms of where I'm looking at it as economically driving growth and and just getting shit done for one of them, better phrase.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Well, that that's right, because you know the sooner you get the way leave in, you you need the revenue in quicker. So it doesn't have to be the most perfect way leave. And the lawyers on the landlord side will go through it with red pen and it's word perfect and the full stops are wherever they need to be. It doesn't necessarily need to be like that, as long as the main risks um are dealt with. Um you know, and and also a lot of people are they call them PTW, proceed to work, I think they're called. They are still way leaves, but they're very simple way leaves. And really, a way leaf is just an agreement in writing that you can build on the land and do certain things on the land. So it doesn't need to be complicated.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Yeah, it's often the way, isn't it, in life? People you things can be as complicated as you want to make them normally when they yeah, that makes sense. My most my most pressing thing, and and I I literally could speak to you all day um about whaleys. Not necessarily whaleys. At least some of the our industry is 100% and and the sort of role you play as a as a figurehead, because there aren't a lot of entrepreneurial women in there. When I speak to to Teagan and Am who you who I know you've you you've you've chat to when we do events and they do events, I'm like, well, we need some more women leaders in this and we need some more owners of businesses. And Teagan said to me the other day, Will, there's not that many. And I'm like, bloody hell, you're right. Yeah, and I think it's important that you are as visual as as as you are. But the key question we all want to know is if you could have any superpower besides way leaves, because that's not a superpower no matter what you tell me, what superpower would you have and why?

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Oh um I'd like to be invisible just to see what's going on, what people are really talking about.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

So you'd be what at work or just walking around?

SPEAKER_00 52:31

Just walking around walking around, you know, um what what they're saying. Um yeah, just know their secrets really.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

Well, just just read my LinkedIn, you'll see my secrets.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

I'm the same. I I'm far too much. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

Everything's out there. I think it's amazing. I mean, look, when you think you own a growing business, Goldman Sachs, board memberships at Inca and all the other stuff, and it was because you had a couple too many Pinot Gris that's not the only reason, but Pinot Grigios in Liverpool. I think what I always think is really interesting for me, and which why I felt privileged to be here, and I know you know my mum who watches this thinks to say there's always these like sliding door sort of moments in in careers, and it's always the people like yourself who go, I'm going for it. Yeah, I'm gonna take that chance. Yeah, I could stay corporate and Terry as well. I could stay do that. I think I think my mistress is onto something. I'm gonna the business itself is enough for me to to risk our families sort of yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

I think it's really important, particularly for women. Just go for it. You've only got one life. If it doesn't work, say what? No one's gonna laugh at you. It's like just go for it. You can always go back to a job if you've got the idea. It's hard, it's just having that idea.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

But it's it's it's I have this chat with with Avon who's who's um she's doing amazing things at Virgin and she's on a few panels now. And I remember speaking to her a few years ago, and there was a cant director job, and I said, She won't mind me using this example, you should go for it. No, I can't, because I don't tick every single box, and you know, we speak now, and I know not through due to me, due to her experiences, she would go for for those roles in the future, but at the time, yeah, and I think sometimes a lot of the women I've worked with wanted to be perfect in in every box, whereas you know a bloke would go, I can do some of that, I'll learn the rest, and yeah, you know, less thought goes into it, I suppose. Yeah, and it's like amazing what you say in terms of just gotta go for it. You don't know unless you I know.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

We were gonna do a trial of the um the new programme I told you about, and um I was I was thinking, Oh god, we'll just do ten people, and then I thought about it and I thought, why just stop at ten? Why don't you just roll it out? We can fix it as we go along, it doesn't need to be perfect, but I think that's a sales mentality, actually, because I know Terry's got the same view, it's just just go for it and fix it as it goes along and because everything can be perfect in a in a boardroom, looking at it until you're out speaking to your customers and getting that feedback. So, yeah, yeah. But yeah, Emily and um Teagan, they're brilliant, I have to say. I think they do good for women, um, and I bet you're really proud of them.

SPEAKER_02 55:39

Yeah, they're you know, without being cheesy, which I rarely am, you know, when I've having come through the environment where you were I was I wouldn't have been too happy with my daughters going into uh the telco environment that I went into. Um, and people like them and yourselves and and so many more women now are making the workplace something that I would be happy for my my daughters to go in because ultimately, like with any of us, you just want to be judged on your work and your you know your moral compass. You don't want to be judged on anything else, yeah. You know, and if you're good, you're good, you're but it's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

And they're always smiling as well, and you know, uh gone are the days where women are stabbing themselves in the back, you can see that they work really well together, and that's what it's all about, you know.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

They are incredibly annoying, but no, I'll take it. Sorry, sorry, Tegan. And um no, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

That you asked me. I'm really privileged.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

I was I was gonna get the courage. Um that's amazing. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 56:49

No, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

I would say, as I always say, anyone that's you know entrepreneurial, if if you need a way leave ultimately, speak for Sarah or EV or any of this other you know amazing things they do with businesses advice. I know uh Millgate Connect have reached out and you've helped them, and and Claire, their MD, was was beyond praising trenches. Yeah, yeah. Um, I think you'll probably bump into her at the event coming up. Um, but also on your journey and things like that, Sharon's someone that I would hugely recommend to reach out to.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

Oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Um, and obviously support her charities as well.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

Thank you very much. Cheers, Shaza.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 57:28

Well, Shazza was a legend there, I have to say. Um, to go through some sliding door moments there where you're working, you you think you're gonna work for British Airways because you learn some languages, and fortunately, you know, a couple of Pinot Grijos, your life takes a different turn. But then to discover something that you're passionate about to the extent that you're gonna add that additional learning, you're gonna move to the other side of the country, you're gonna grow within a massive organisation with 17 years, and then you're gonna make the crazy decision and go, do you know what? I'm gonna start my own business, and to grow that to such an extent while being on board, while doing all these things, and while being a decent person, which I think is the most important, um, has been a pleasure to go through Sharon's journey. And I think the two things I think for me are be nice because you those sort of relationships are important in terms of your network, and always if you don't try something, you'll never know. And I think this is a great way to end. Obviously, thank you all very much for watching, listening. Thank you, Leslie Goodall. It's appreciated as always. Take care.