Chewing the Channel: In conversation with Will Morey

Lessons in leadership, partnerships and building a channel business to last

In this episode of Chewing the Channel, we’re joined by Gamma Channel MD, Will Morey, to explore the experiences, challenges and lessons that have shaped his career.

From the influence of his family and growing up around an entrepreneurial mindset, to discovering that the traditional academic route wasn’t the path for him, Will shares how early experiences helped shape his approach to business and leadership.

The conversation follows his journey from selling diesel at 16 and learning through early entrepreneurial challenges, to building a successful channel business and understanding what it takes to create strong, lasting partnerships.

Will shares his perspective on why relationships matter, why the best channel businesses put partners before products, and the lessons that come from embracing challenges, taking risks and learning along the way.

A thoughtful conversation covering leadership, resilience and the realities of building a business, with plenty of stories and insights along the way.

Website: www.elevate.uk/wholesale

LinkedIn: Will Goodall

LinkedIn: Teigan Kemp

Phone: 0330 058 9530

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hi everyone, welcome to Chewing the Channel. We are in London on the tour. Um a marketing director will shoot me for this, but he's he's forgotten them, so we've got to say it. Normally we would have the elevator wholesale covers, they're currently in our Manchester office, so uh apologies for that. Um really, really, really, really, really, really, really exciting episode today. You have the MD of Gamma Channel, Will, or William, if he's in trouble, Murray, who is gonna spend some time going through his career view on the market, view on what makes a partnership uh important, which I think a lot of times when we we look at things, we move away from that and we focus on the technology and we don't talk about the partnership. So I'm really looking forward to getting into this. Um, obviously, um, any questions as always, feedback and uh to my mum, thank you very much. So we've both established if we're in trouble, William. Absolutely, yeah. Even saying it runs a shiver through my uh it does my uh but will normally and the nicknames you'll have had the same as mine. Charlie and the Chocks Factory has a lot to answer for. Absolutely for all of us wills out there. Um what I wanted to do, because I obviously I do extensive research. Um we I want to touch on what does a marketeer do for Shell? Because that that kind of intrigued me because I remember watching a Jimmy Carr. I remember Jimmy Carr thing when he started selling in the oil industry, so yeah, it's really difficult. Do you have a car? Yes. Well, you're gonna need some of the stuff I have. So that's interesting. But before that, where where did you grow up then? Have you always been to an uneducated northerner, a savner?

SPEAKER_02 1:46

So I'm a I'm a Sussex boy, um you know, bred, uh raised on a farm and uh spent my sort of formative years on a farm, and um yeah, down at down in Sussex in a little village called Nathurst.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

So I imagine a lot of the the farmers near near me is you have the young farmers um convention, and majority of farmers I grew up with, and I was quite rural near where I live in Cheshire, you're staying in the farming industry. It's kind of you're going to work for your dad or your mate's home, or or you're certainly going to be in that agricultural world because I'm assuming you were helping out and I I flirted with the idea briefly, and I thought about going and doing the agricultural college route and that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

And to be honest, it wasn't a yeah, big working farm. Um, it was sort of somewhere in between, and and I fairly quickly worked out that that wasn't gonna be for me. What I knew is I wanted to run a business, I wanted to be involved in business from a really early age. I had this kind of like, I don't know why, I don't know what, but I want to I wanna I love the idea of business.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

What started that sort of feeling? I mean, in terms of you know, your your family, did you have any entrepreneurs, people that were, you know, buying so uh what what was kind of planted those seeds when you look back?

SPEAKER_02 3:03

A few people around me, sort of, yeah, uncles and aunts and and and things were all had yeah, some of them had their own businesses. Previous generation, yeah. I came from uh if I look back, I remember being raised on stories of my my great-grandparents, went out to India and then out to Singapore and they built their own business. Weirdly, an electrical distribution business in Singapore. You used to be able to go to Singapore in the 80s, and there was Maury written on the on the manhole covers, and they they put all the electrical infrastructure into Singapore. And uh then sadly the the war happened and uh and they actually got interred in Changi prison, which they they built, which was uh was quite an interesting story. And had to come back to the complicated prison. Great material. Love the construction on that wall, but Jesus obviously wasn't the other one.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

I wish we'd made a worse job on this so we made it a bit more.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

But but that was yeah, a couple of generations ago, and then uh and then I was always sort of brought up with that and always loved the idea of of of of of just business and and running my own business.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

And was that because I suppose there's a few threads to that because you've got there's the the status, commercial sort of benefits of owning a business, but then yeah, I suppose you're not answering to people, you're able to chart your own direction, and it's quite interesting at a young age you want to to kind of point your direction and and head with full control because a lot of times people that I've had on guest business owners have have maybe started a career in one bit, and and like I know like you know, Jay uh Ball he got sacked about eight times from different jobs before, I'm sure. Yeah, deservedly. Um it's why he has to run a business because he'd kind of you know taken a few blows, if you like, in the career place before, and and you're kind of going, well, actually, no, I I want to start that business.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

And did you do what was your first business that well I think part of the driver for me? I'm definitive. I'm probably ADHD and neurodiverse in all sorts of ways. Um, and I knew that the whole academic thing was never for me. I I loved the the kind of the meritocracy of business, like from a really early age that was quite innate to me. You know, you you got on because you made stuff happen and you you you did good things. It wasn't somebody else's opinion necessarily of of marking it. That that sort of stuck in my head, that whole idea, and I think that that whole dislike, the more yeah, and and actually being quite maverick and being able to see things differently. And I think about the entrepreneurs I work with, you mentioned Jay, there are lots of others out there. They're they're not normal, yeah, in a really positive way. They think differently, they approach problems differently. I always and I love that.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

No, I agree. I think an entrepreneur has, and I say this with love, a chip missing. I like to think personally, I have a lot of entrepreneurial bits, but that little bit of I'm gonna risk it all, and I'm gonna you know live on credit cards or whatever in the early stages of the businesses, or you know, not a set wage, I don't have that currently, maybe it'll change. Yeah, the the bit as well on the on the dyslexia bit. I mean, you look younger than me, but you're slightly older, and it's important that you know when when we talk about dyslexia now, yeah, it's still difficult in our education system, but there is more awareness, there's more acceptance of it, yeah. Not acceptance in terms of people um making allowances, but more support structure. Yeah. When when you're kind of growing up, looking back at that, I would imagine I don't want words in your mouth, there's nothing absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

It's been such a journey for me over the last few years because my son came along. I've got two two sons, one is dyslexic, and he's very smart, but he couldn't get it down on paper. He just couldn't, he he uh academically he was really struggling. So we took him to a tutor when he was about five, and every Saturday morning between sort of five, six years old, and about three weeks ago, he went along on a Saturday morning for an hour to be taught how his brain worked, and it was just fantastic. And every Saturday morning, I'm convinced I learned as much or more than he did because it taught me.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Was that where that kind of realization where you're listening going that trigger?

SPEAKER_02 7:25

I wish I'd had that when when I was absolutely and it yeah, and my mum's also dyslexic. If I wasn't available, she'd go along with him or my wife would or whatever. But but yeah, mum would often go and she'd be like, Oh my god, we should just go along for these lessons without Jack. And it was incredible about three or four weeks ago. He had his last ever lesson, and the the tutor said, You're done. You know, you I've I've taken you as far as I can I can get you. And you know, on a Saturday morning of the weeks before that, he'd turn up and they'd discuss, you know, war poetry and Seafried Sassoon and this you know passion that he had for that, and it's like my god, you know, the development. I wish I'd had that same focus, that same development, that same sort of capability. And he was learning how yeah, techniques, like you know, if he if he he can't spell a word by looking at it, but if you asked him to uh the tutor had a punch bag in his room and he'd say, punch the letters, like you know, so he'd say spell pneumatic, P N E U M A. And he'd hit it. And he could do it, and he could do it backwards if he punched it. But if he just learned it off a bit of paper, he couldn't do it at all.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

And and he and it's it's kind of more definitely to your credit, because I you know, I remember growing up probably talking about 30 years ago when I was a teenager, I think, and uh a family member um who used to be a teacher, was we were in a just a family thing, and he said uh yeah, we didn't have uh uh dyslexia in my school because no one was middle class. Some really ignorant comment that you you and my mum bless her, she's kind of like me, bit of a loose canon. She's like she went, and and and rightly so, but that sort of prevailing attitude was very strong. So you're kind of entrepreneurially, it's in a weird way benefiting you to give you that focus to start a business, but then it's also giving you that awareness that you're learning now for your son if you like to go actually and and does that kind of you know, skipping forward to your career now, does that influence how you lead and operate your business where you know you've got so many people, and there's difficulties to be um in terms of everyone's issues. I mean, I put a post on LinkedIn, for example, my daughter's deaf, yeah, and so certain rooms and certain environments she can hear, can't hear.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

My wife's deaf, so I spend a lot of time with her wingman in a room, and I have to know, did you hear what that person said? Yeah, okay, or do I need to repeat it back? So you you learn those techniques out of it.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

And it's through those mechanisms that you know in in in business and stuff where you kind of go, Well, actually, are there things we can do that make it a better environment? Because, like the example of your son, yeah, and what's he, 13? Yeah, 13 now, yeah. So what he's talking about intellectually is is is certainly more than I was doing at 13. So for me, yeah, potentially you're looking at someone who's a real asset to a business or to run their own business, but may need um a level of understanding to allow them to flourish. Yeah. And you know, how do you factor those sort of things in? Can it be done within a within a business, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Absolutely, because that is the nature of a team, isn't it? You you if you've got a team that's all one thing, you're screwed. Yeah, I I talk a lot about having a uh you know, you need a toolkit in terms of your personal style as an individual. You know, if you turn up and you've only got a hammer in your toolkit, every problem looks like a nail, and you just turn up and you whack it. But you can't do that, you've got to make sure you've got a range of tools in your own toolkit to handle any situation. But the same with a team, you've got to have a complete range of skills and abilities, and you know, the the way people compliment each other, the way people support each other now. Do you find no alignment? And drawing that that capability out of people is what I'm passionate about as a leader.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

But how it's that learning on that bit because during your career or during anyone's career, it's very easy to recruit leaders or people who you would go for a beer with, yeah, or who you and and a lot of the time when we see um, and I know you'll have uh a number of resellers who are who are growing, and those first hires are really important where they can either accelerate their growth or they could they can decline. And sometimes people will go and hire someone who they feel they relate to, yeah, but is perhaps not the right fit for their business because personally they might be better with someone who they're wouldn't go for a beer with, yeah, but would be uh a different style to theirs and and complement it.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

And that's very much been my own journey. Yeah, when I started Pragma, um I teamed up. Well, there was there were three of us originally, David George, who was the original founder of Crane, a previous business, who sadly passed away uh uh a number of years ago. Um, and then myself and Tim Brooks and Tim and I were running the business. David was essentially an investor. But Tim Brooks is very different from me. We go for a beer and we you know got on incredibly well, but is a completely different style to me. And the compliment, the way we complimented each other, the way we could we could yeah, actually approach a problem differently, engage an individual differently, work with a different customer. You know, there there were customers like that's a Tim customer, that's a Will customer, because they'll get on with one of us, but they won't get on with the other. That blend of skills, I would say, is one of the best things, yeah. When I think about that growth of pragma and what what we did, that that sat at the heart of it, and even yeah, the the team would know.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Two of you about it, would would struggle to Tim, but together we were almost a complete human being. Yeah, no, I I I we see it a lot, and there's some amazing entrepreneurial leaders in the reseller space, but effectively, there's not always the ones I know a kind of a a right hand person who is sometimes their equivalent of a conscience saying that's a brilliant idea, but it's gonna take X amount of money and da da da da da da and we need to focus here. And they just they use them almost as their entrepreneurial conscience, and it just keeps the business solid. Because we've seen examples probably where that isn't in place, and a founder can then accelerate and and they get some money, and and there's not that counteract, and suddenly a business scales ahead and then it's kind of shrinks afterwards a little bit, shall we say?

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Very much so, and I'm very much sort of you know, a million ideas a minute, I'll constantly be thinking uh is that uh about new ideas, new ways of doing things. Yeah, I'm a great believer, and if it's not broken, break it. That can be useful, but you absolutely need that person who's like you don't need to break everything, it's all right. We we could just execute on this idea rather than rushing on to the next one. All of those things are really, really healthy, and I've learned over my career to control that a bit more as well. Uh, that actually all those ideas are quite wearing for the people around you, and uh yeah, to be honest, actually, at the moment, God bless AI, because it means I can wear AI out with all of those constant ideas and conversations, it will help me filter and it'll it means I can express the idea, I can get it out, I can do all that, go backwards and forwards, and it might write if it's a good view of it. Yeah, yeah. So it stops it stops me wearing all the people around me with irritating will ideas all the time.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

So obviously, you know, you grew up in Sussex, Farmstead, yeah, you've kind of gone, I want to start my own business. So the logical move is to um, and I'm sure there was some stats before that, to um support Shell with their marketing. Yeah. Um Well, it was actually sales. I I started out in sales. So I love that. So my first question, uh sorry to cut over you. What help does Shell need selling?

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Well, um Is that not the best job in the world? It it was, and it was an interesting job. So what I did was I sold agricultural diesel and uh lubricants, right? I've got a story for you in a minute you're gonna love on that front. But so imagine you're sort of what was I, 16, 17 at that time. I because I left school, I I was 16, so luckily I already knew everything, so I didn't need to go to school. Every 16-year-old knows everything. Exactly, it was it was fantastic. So I left school. Not that I really went to school before that very much, but that's another story. Um, and then I I kind of joined Shell, and uh it in it was a subsidiary kind of uh like a distribution network for Shell that I was working with in. And we were selling diesel to farmers. Now, don't know how many farmers it's you know, but they're they're they can be quite tight. Agricultural diesel is quite difficult to differentiate. You know, my diesel's better than your diesel, not the easiest conversation. Not many USPs, are there in the end? And it's traded at pence per litre, so it would be you know thirteen point zero one pence per litre for red diesel, say at the time. So you were in a market where you were were negotiating and selling to the tightest, hardest to engage customers, and being 16, 17 years of age, so already discounted as soon as you walk in because of your age. Yeah, and I loved it. You know, it was it was brilliant fun, and I fairly quickly got through, did a few deals, worked out how how things worked, and then was relatively young when I was put in my first sort of sales and sales management role and was sort of like. And is that still in Sussex? Or were you kind of with the bright lights? In Orcham and then and then moved over to Tunbridge Wells, where the sort of regional office was as kind of a part of a company called Shell Direct, which was their sort of direct selling arm into uh uh in that sort of you know, home heating oil, diesel lubricants. Appeared on Mastermind, and my specialist subject was industrial gear lubricants. So Shell hired Magnus Magnuson and the BBC TV film crew for a national competition, and you had to show your your outstanding knowledge of industrial gear lubricants.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Well, it's funny you say that. I have some questions. No, I don't.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Malius GL95, I remember, was the uh one of my specialists uh uh uh I think it was an industrial gear application. So I yeah, I did that, which was was really good fun, loads of random stuff.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

And I assume as well, because you're kind of looking back on it funly, and and and as with all first sales jobs, they're always amazing. There are, I'm assuming, some sort of almost like boxing moments where you've taken a few blows, you think you've sold something, and and you kind of it's interesting you kind of you because you've gone from a school environment where you hated it for description into something that you love, but there's challenges, there's a tough market to deal with. Yeah, probably got a lot of people going, can we sort can you sort us out with some of your family friends and all that? And it's quite an incestuous industry as well, because everyone knows everyone, and you're navigating in that and moving up and progressing. And what what kind of landed on you when you were building those relationships where you thought this is this is my fit, school wasn't my fit, but yeah, dealing with people, dealing with their businesses, and this is kind of where I want to be.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

It it just yeah, as you say, it just felt right, and you quickly sort of you know step into those sorts of things, and it just feels like you know, putting on item clothing, it just feels comfortable. I was always good at relationship, I was always good good with people, um, and was raised in a sort of environment where there were lots of random people flowing through the farm, and yeah, you'd get to know different people. We'd have Kiwis and South Africans living in mobile homes at the end of the uh at the end of the farm driveway to do the fencing, and you just get to know all these random individuals. It was it was great, and I loved that sort of environment. So when I went into it, it it very quickly felt comfortable, and I thought, yeah, I I I can do this. And what I worked out fairly quickly is if you work hard, you get on, and and you've got that immediate reward where it's like, oh what? So that does actually work. You you put the grit and the grind in and you get a result out, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

That's amazing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 19:15

And it's like when that happens, that that thing goes off in your head, you're like, So if I do more, I'll go faster.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Do you think kind of and his apologies? This is the way my brain works, do you think that's a danger? Or do you think the increased technology we're seeing, and it'll be it's the highest it'll be ever now, and then in ten years we'll look back and go, God, can't believe they did this. Yeah, they're archaic. Do you think there's a danger that that old school inverted commas, the harder you work, the rewards the the more rewards can get lost because people will look at things and go, Well, normally I had to do XYZ, maybe do some travelling, maybe work longer days. Now I don't need to because this app does that and this does that. And do you think there's a danger on that pure work ethic, or do you just think it's down to the individual?

SPEAKER_02 20:06

I think it's always been the same. It's the smarter you work, not necessarily the harder. Working harder doesn't get you any further forward in my experience. Most of the time, there's there's people who who work incredibly hard and put the hours in and won't take out the result. It's being able to work smarter, see the opportunity. And I've always been a great believer in just being as kind of agile to the opportunity as you possibly can. Just work work hard, be smart, and opportunities present yourself and just embrace them and go with it. And that's how my career's sort of developed. In fact, I was doing a coaching session recently with a guy who who does sort of executive coaching, and he was saying, you've got to get out of that mindset, you've got to start thinking about how you want to design your next steps, not the opportunistic approach. And it was like, Oh, I'd never thought about actually thinking, what do I, you know, where am I going to get to much more explicitly. I've always looked for the opportunities and shaped that to be where I want to get to.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Sometimes a lot of the time I think we're all guilty of you kind of live on instinct where you know intrinsically this is the side of feels right, and you follow that. But there's when people go, Why did you do that? You kind of like because I just that was I just knew the data I didn't get 19 million types of data, I didn't do this and that. I just felt this was the core direction. Yeah, so obviously, lubricants is a is a fascinating subject. Um, I've just seen how many times I can say Libric here on the pod before Martha Director punches me in the head. But um you had, and you said as growing up, I want to run my own business. So as you're kind of experiencing the sales bit, which we all know, any business, you need a very good sales bit in order, doesn't matter what you've you've got, if you like, if you can't get it out to market and sell it, you'll you'll struggle. At what point during your is it five, six years at show were you kind of thinking, This is great, but I feel like there's a bit of an itch. I want to that I need to describe.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Towards the end, I kind of I was learning loads. So yeah, typically when I'm Plus you see when I'm learning 17, so you're living in. Exactly. So I'm sort of early 20s and I'm learning loads. I'm earning good money. It's all fun and interesting. But as I as the learning started to slow down a little bit, I was thinking, what do I want to do? Is this what I want to do? I got involved then much more in marketing. And um at that point I thought, right, I'm going to go and do something. And there was a guy I worked with in our IT team, and we came up with this idea for doing sort of a an ATIT recruitment sort of resourcing model, and we set it up and we gave it a go. Had you seen a gap? And yes, we felt there was a gap there through stuff that we were consuming internally, and we kind of set this business up. Absolutely no clue what we were doing, not a fucking idea. Like literally, I had a sales. I just thought we sold loads, it would be alright.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

And did you start it as a side hustle? Yeah, and then as it grew, you've kind of gone, Matt, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

And then of course it did grow. And then, you know, crazy things like having cash to support growth suddenly becomes a reality. And I was so sort of one-dimensional in the way I understood business at that point that I didn't get it, and the two of us were quite one-dimensional in our understanding. So that kind of went under fairly quickly, and we were like, Oh, okay. And when you mean one-and that was like a bit of a wake-up call of right, I get the aspiration, I want to run my own business, but to do that, you've got to have this range of skills.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

And when I get those skills, it's one-dimensional. So it's generating cash. Is that that you were profligate with it and you went, We've made loads of money. No, no, no, was it scale too fast?

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Growth costs money, yeah, scale too fast. You know, if you if you if you can't think ahead and think about how to fund growth, it it can kill you. And it and it did really quickly. And and it wasn't, yeah, it we had a go at it and it was fun, and I'm really glad I did it. It it I wasn't in the right place at that time to do it, neither was the person I was doing it with, and we kind of like, actually, this isn't gonna work for us. So I was I was back in uh at Shell, continuing at Shell, and then what we did is I got involved in some technology projects where they wanted to centralize uh communications into a single office rather than having distributed offices around the UK and then I think around Europe. And I and there was I got a fax shot that that dates me somewhat. So you used to walk past the city.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

I used to send contracts out of fax in my job, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Fax shots were basically spam on a fax machine, yeah. And I remember walking past, and there was a fax shot um from a guy called Bart Delgado, who was behind a Kixie, and uh prior to that Swan CTI and that sort of stuff. Talking about CTI, and this is sort of late 90s. I was like, if we had CTI, we could keep that local approach that we have with our customers because we got all these farmers ringing up who want to speak to someone, but we could centralise it into one single office. So we put that in, I got involved with it. We put a whole node of new telephony technology in the SDX index, which was the cutting edge at that point.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Sorry, well, when the way you're talking, and I I think it's amazing, but it's and it's amazing when we speak to entrepreneurs like you, because everything is sound so simple. Yeah, so you've had a fax and you've gone, this is great, we'll just put it in. There's stakeholders, there's and I suppose you're leaning on your relationship skills that you're refining to be able to bring everyone on that journey to say, Yeah, you know, this is the the technology solution, these are the benefits, and and away you go. Because yeah, it's it's it's a lot of businesses where they look it there's so many challenges, aren't there? Because you you might go, This is the right thing, yeah. But everyone goes, sorry, Will, you you left us, you started your own business, that didn't go well, you've come back. We don't yeah, you know, we're not you were not uh valuing your opinion, but obviously you were able to bring the the business with you on quite a big transformational sort of expertise.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

It was yeah, I I think entrepreneurs often and people can have that sort of reality distortion field, they just don't see the problems, they're just kind of weirdly, beautifully naive individuals, and sometimes that that happens. And I've I've worked with lots of those people over the years, and you and you just don't see the problems. You just keep driving, keep driving, and and we we did that, and it it sort of it worked out. And I took I I kind of are quite good at generating enthusiasm and energy and and getting people focused on a goal and saying, No, that that's where we're going, this is gonna work. And and it did, and and we put it in and it it was all good. And uh we we kind of ad adopted that and it got adopted across the UK. And then the company that uh that was kind of providing that technology or was sort of aligned to that was Crane, and then I ended up joining Crane Telecommunications, which was David George's business, who were the Ericsson LG Ipex distributor way back when in the early 90s, and uh and an Avia distributor. And yeah, David George was a kind of a pioneer of channel thinking in especially in telco. He dot he noticed in 1991 the market will go channel, and we need to treat channel partners as customers, and we will put everything and we put all of our partners at the heart of our business. They're not a route to market, they're not some kind of you know, sort of a different relationship, but they are a customer, and we will do everything that we can to help make their business successful. And he was very influential over my thinking.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Do you think from 91 kind of strikes a chord of me? Do you think a lot of wholesale businesses have that aim in mind, or do you think a challenge for channel businesses sometimes who are moving into the space they see channel as um I've sold as much as I can with my direct route to market, yeah? I must need wholesale, and it's the same sort of thing. I'll I'll open up a wholesale division, and you know, the I won't be thinking about my potential resellers or partners, I'm just viewing it as a separate route to market that is just going to complement my loads of out there, and and especially historically, particularly dominant in North American companies, in my experience, because the North American market's very different and they come to the UK and they expect it to be the same.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Um, but most companies get confused with the fact that they're selling a product, and I think what makes good channel businesses great if they're not selling a product, but what they're doing is they're being a a partner growth uh kind of engine. They're they're actually helping channel partners grow their businesses, and product is an incidental to that. They're a product company second, not first. First of all, they're a channel enablement business, a partner growth business. If you put that at the heart of your thinking, you tend not to get distracted with all of the stuff that you're talking about. And obviously, a lot of people try think of themselves as a product business first, and then they follow the thinking and the rationale that you've said, which is oh yeah, okay, I've I've exhausted direct, I'd better get a wholesale channel, or this isn't efficient enough, wholesale is more direct. But first of all, they're a product business.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

It's one of the the layers I think in in channel because you can you can fall down that trap. You can also fall down the trap of um if I put you as a position of a wholesale or a reseller, listen, you're silly reseller, you're selling it wrong, you need to sell it this way. Yeah, this technology is the best thing in the world. I know you don't sell it currently, but you should sell it. And this is how I'm going to communicate to you, and I'm gonna tell you how to make more margin, and I'm gonna and and sometimes I see we tip a little bit as a as a channel into the telling rather than listening sort of area.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

And so many industry events I go to and have gone to over the years, you have people get their very expensive platinum-sponsored speaking slot, and they stand up on the stage and they deliver a quick overview of the technology, and their message is essentially if you're not working with me, you're screwed. And it's like, that's so not true. You know, there's a myriad of products out there, and you know, actually, yeah, this is a product that that you might consider, and I'd be really grateful if you'd think about it. But the message often comes across as, you know, oh, well, if you're not working for us, yeah, pretty much. We're so unique and we're so special and so amazing. Your business is gonna go under within the next five years because you haven't got the benefit of our capability. It's utter nonsense. And I'm gonna claim an award later that we've sponsored and it is just nonsense. You know, there are so many options out there, and different products, different environments, and and and sort of ecosystems suit different channel partners in different ways. Yeah, channel partners, some are great at partnering, some are great sales organizations. There's there's lots of yeah, some are great. Different flavours, aren't there? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

But yeah, it's it's interesting how you can how I think it's easy to move away from being customer-led, yeah, particularly as you scale a business. And I'm sure with your experience in the channel, you've seen and been guilty of and learnt from bits where you're growing, you're actually I wasn't listening to those customers, or I've I've come away from it a little bit, and a little bit like and I know it wasn't due to the channel in your first business, where perhaps you've you've scaled too fast because you want to just grow, grow, grow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and that's a really scary stage of a business, by the way, isn't it? I mean, I know what you went through there is it's such a challenge because you might need to hire people, but then you need to um add that cost, then you may need to service more sales, so you need to maybe take some loans and do it.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

You've borrowed money from family and friends, which buy situation you're thinking like, sh I've gonna I've borrowed that money from them, how am I gonna make this right? It's it's tough, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

It's really I think there was uh you know, the entrepreneurs, the majority, there's there's a couple of businesses before the the the one that if you like flies, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Failure's a great thing, it's it can be expensive learning, but it's about as good as it gets in terms of learning, I think.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

And who would you who would you use as um sort of mentors or or or role models during that time? Is it because obviously you came from a family of yeah, you know, a chunk of entrepreneurs, or there were people you could bounce ideas off uh that would give you, I guess, true unfiltered feedback rather than potentially someone telling you what you want to hear because maybe they've they want you to buy something from them or or whatever or take.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Yeah, my no, my uncle Roger was was fantastic. He talked to me, he ran his own business for a long time, and yeah, he he was great to talk to and he helped me out in all sorts of ways. And uh and other members of family and friends who who just listen and and try and guide you, but you know, at that time it was just naivety, really.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

I didn't I didn't it's amazing that you've got family and friends putting, you know, they're kind of looking at you going, because because again, I keep drawing back to high school where you're almost discounted because they consider you a you know, there's a lack of ability, but then you fast forward and you've got family and friends willing to invest their own hard-earned cash and they believe in you fundamentally and what you're trying to do. It's quite a testament. And I suppose sometimes you when you look back on stuff, yeah, you go, you're in the you're in the mix, aren't you? I imagine when you go in your business, you're like, we need this, we'll do that, we'll do this, we do that. Yeah, um, and then you've kind of fast forward and you get this support. Um CVs and LinkedIn though. What what so that's mainly my wife's business? She so we're if we help on that with you.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Yeah, so we've done it.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

You're LinkedIn, you know, we could do a little bit. I'm I'm happy to do a free of charge. Yeah, I do a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

I do need a bit of help with that, I think. I'm not I I find I'm I struggle with LinkedIn if I'm honest. I'm not I I struggle with social media full stop. It in my experience, it's either bragging or moaning. And I I do struggle with it a bit, you know. It's it's hard, isn't it? Look at what I'm doing, look at where I am, whatever, or oh my god, isn't that a nightmare?

SPEAKER_00 33:57

And I I have you ever had um a message from someone asking if you were recruiting and then clicked on their thing, and probably 20 minutes before they've put a post up with the company they're at saying this is the best company in the world, we've got ice creams today, and you kind of the perception of the social media perception is often inaccurate. Yes, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

And it yeah, that authenticity, I find that's why I struggle with with a lot of the social media platforms, is they lack authenticity. Yeah, as a media form, it should increase authenticity, isn't it? Because it's a it's it should be a less polished experience. But people try and polish it, try and turn them and project an image, and that that I struggle with. Yeah, I am who I am, yeah. I can't be anybody else, everybody else is taken. So you know, you it's it's just this. So I can't I can't do anything as anything more than my phone, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

What you got, you know, that you didn't get the Italian yet, exactly. It's and then the bit as well. I mean, to go through step by step, but how did you end up supporting um on investment in the country on the on on tech? And was that kind of um a side sort of bit where you're working with I'm assuming government departments to to add your expertise in so maybe if I fill the gap in the gap between those two things, so yeah, we yeah, we made that step into that as well.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Yeah, I left the uh the the oil industry, leaving lubricants far behind. Um and I went into Crane, joined David George's organization, and and did lots of different roles there and ended up as a as an MD there alongside Tim Brooks, who became my business partner. David very kindly put both of us actually through but I I did my MBA when I was at Crane as executive MBA alongside my.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

How did you find going back into that education?

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Were you a bit absolutely loved it? It was the geeky, it was the right time for me. I was in my mid-20s, I just loved writing writing essays. I thought education was the the most phenomenal. Yeah, yeah. I I just loved it. It was it was an absolutely brilliant experience I'd recommend to anybody at the right time in their life.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

It wasn't right for me earlier, but at that point it was sometimes what's not right now might not be might be right in the future to keep over mind, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Yeah, yeah, very much. So I did that, then became an MD in the in the in the crane business, which was good, kind of business unit MD, which was really good. And at this point, I kind of got a lot more uh understanding different skills, different aspects of the business, and and was sort of a little hopefully a little bit more rounded, and um kind of got through that. Crane were then acquired by by Westcon. Um and Westcon took over the business and that was integrated in, and I I spent a little bit of time there and uh ended up in a in an MA role that was really interesting, looking at kind of making acquisitions in uh Russia. Um, we did a uh started up, did a startup in Czech based out of uh Prague. I worked in in Milan a little bit. Um we did a joint venture in Turkey, which I loved, and was spending lots of time in Istanbul. And yeah, doing all that sort of stuff was was fantastic, but it MA wasn't my thing, and it I wasn't that busy to be honest, because there weren't that many deals coming through at that time.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

So I then And when you say MA, you would you would get a well will can you look at these these companies and does it? Or can you find companies we want to move into the yeah uh this area of Russia coming up? Because you see so much MA activity happening daily, it seems at the minute. Yeah, you're able to talk on a on a level with with um owners who are either being acquired, wanting to be acquired, and what they need to maybe do to enhance what sort of exit they want to get.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Exactly, yeah. And and that that was a fascinating role, but I knew it was a relatively short-term role. Wasn't scratched it wasn't giving you what you needed. No, so then I took the somewhat unusual uh uh decision to uh just drop everything for two years and go traveling. So my wife and I old you've been then early mid-30s, mid-thirties, maybe. So had never done a gap year, left school at 16, went straight into a job, mid-30s. I thought, oh sod it, let's go and have a look at the world because I always love to travel. And we we spent two years just knocking around the world, lived in New Zealand for a while in the US, and then we're all through Asia and Was it lovely traveling, or did you do a bit of a bit of I'm assuming it wasn't backpacks, you foster no, we were living on sort of you know, sometimes yeah, staying places a couple of quid a night in India, living on a beach in Goa. Sometimes we'd be in a you know, we we got a little house on the beach in New Zealand for a few months, that was really lovely. A little surf beach in the North Island on the East Cape, that was great. We we were in Indonesia, we were we did uh two thousand mile walks in Europe called in the Camino de Santiago, where you just stick a rucksack on and walk for a thousand twelve hundred miles, that was brilliant. Did all that sort of stuff for for two years, then came back, started uh a couple of little businesses there with within what made you come back from that? Money ran out, so I knew I'd better go and recharge the bank account.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

So uh see one of one of my friends, uh uni, he used to say to me, his dream would be to he just saw himself we were doing politics, but he saw himself um living somewhere where he would be fixing surfboards and things like that. And I look at it, I followed his career now. He's I think he's taught English in Vietnam, Hanoi, and then he's moved to um Thailand for a bit, then he went to Russia, yeah, he left Russia four and a bit years ago, uh funnily enough, and he's in Australia. But he was he was always that free spirit that he wanted to experience different cultures, he did not want the same thing, yeah, kind of nine to five, sort of for a better description. And it's curious how you've you've done that yesterday, the funds are low, but you've gone right, I'm gonna start a business straight away. You could have quite easily come back and gone, I'm gonna get a corporate gig, yeah, where you know the money starts to flow and then we'll go traveling any year or or or whatever. You've you've kind of come back and gone, I've learned these experiences, I want to add that as well as my business experience into the next stage of of my personal growth, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

And I I guess, yeah, I was doing bits of pieces of consulting. I was kind of working out how to earn money and and sort of charge up the coffers again and actually working out what I wanted to do. I thought I'd answer that in the two years, but actually I had so much fun that I never thought about it. It was only once I got back I thought I'd better answer that. So I then got into lots of different things and got involved in some consulting gigs. I worked with Channel 4, helping them understand social media. Yeah, lubricant. Our social media worked in advertising with their advertising revenues, that was really interesting. I worked with a train operating company in terms of franchise bid, and uh and then sort of through that, after another couple of projects, I got involved and introduced to somebody who was working in central government, in foreign office, in UK trade and investment, and then there was this job where you could travel around the world talking about the UK as an im yeah as a as an investment destination, sort of in in foreign direct investment, into the UK. And um I uh I got the got the consultancy gig and did that as a as a sort of a paid consultant job for uh for a fair while hanging out in embassies and and saying that the UK is a great place.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Did you find an element of that frustrating because of your entrepreneurial?

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Governmental thinking, slow. It was that's exact it was painful. Yeah, it it was it was incredibly interesting in lots of ways, and there were lots of lovely parts to the job, you know. Well you don't have to scratch that to embassies and having uh dinners with the ambassador and all that sort of nonsense. That was really good fun, and the doors it opened, you could walk in anywhere, you know. You get to meet with Amazon and Facebook and VMware and all these different and tiny brands and getting them to come to the UK. But yeah, when I looked at how the government ran, I found it so frustrating and so you're you're uh depressing.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

You know, you're coming at it from an entrepreneurial point of view, you want to get shit done. Yeah, that's not an environment that is getting shit done, but it's potentially opens up the black book in terms of it benefit your future career. But I could see how that would be. When I looked at your your thing, I was like, I bet that was actually quite frustrating because you're you're kind of convinced you invest in Britain, do this, yes, cheers. Well, we'll take that on board, and in 10 years something might happen.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

It wasn't the quick hit that I was used to. And I I was at the end of it, I was sitting in an office uh with the ex-home secretary, Jackie Smith. I remember being very well in London, and uh I got a telephone call and it was Tim Brooks. You're you're not to not to blame for Jackie's husband's uh That was that was a year before. I was gonna avoid mentioning that, which is usually how I tell the story, but yeah, yes, exactly. Uh her husband's indiscretion with hotel uh hotel expenses, wasn't it? Um Tim rang me and I said, I'm sorry, I've got to take this because he I thought, why is he ringing me? I uh so I answered the phone, he said, I've left Westcom, what are we gonna do? And that was kind of the start of Pragma. And David uh um had a had an idea with with Pragma, and we got involved and and then got to build that business up, and that was 2012. Um and here I am now.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Yeah, does and I can't use the time because I could probably we could do the we could do a series on you, um but I and for such a large business like Gamma, and I know we spoke off camera on this, because of your upbringing in terms of the how important relationships are, yeah, how have you maintained that as the business is scaled to you know unimaginable kind of heights to still be in touch with customers? Because again, one of the challenges you see in channel, as well as potentially channel businesses being preachy to their customers, they can be the bit where they scale and the idea is we're gonna automate everything and we don't need to speak to people because uh what how have you maintained the sort of touch points within your I think what's great is the gamma DNA comes from channel, you know, that is the core gamma.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

A business they they get channel, they they love channel, they they understand and believe in relationships, and it's been a common theme all the way through. Um, so what we need to do and what we do all the time is work out how to make sure we can scale relationships because if everybody yes wants to maintain that I'm gonna bring one person at the top, then that's not gonna work, is it? So what you've got to have is empowered people who share the same culture and values around relationships and and and channel thinking, and that's what we've done. So what you've got is you've always built that for your career, haven't you? Yeah, exactly. And and and being yeah, being surrounded by great people. But I spend a lot of time talking to my team about, you know, I think I mentioned it before the the old Stephen Covey thing, the seven principles of highly effective people. Always seek to understand before you seek to be understood. I think the killer and every killer of every conversation is when you walk in and start pitching a product. Don't pitch a product, but understand the partner. What are they trying to achieve? How can I play a meaningful role in your journey? That's the kind of the question we always try and start with. What can we do to help you? Where do we fit into your business? Where do our suite of products fit in? And I think everybody in gamma kind of gets that. They get that they're a part of the reseller story. The reseller's the star is the star of the show. They're the people that we yeah, we absolutely hold up and preserve the centre and we and we service. And yeah, we implemented when I joined a thing called Partner Experience Program, where everybody, Andrew Belshaw, X Co, the SLT, everybody's involved in it, where they make three calls a quarter to a partner that's recorded on Teams. Yeah, it's a structured conversation, and that all gets uploaded into our uh Snowflake AI platform, and that means we can constantly take the pulse of the channel. We know what our partners are thinking, and we ask very honest questions.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Yeah, I mean, we've always said, you know, in our world and my team, it's partners pay our wages, as basic as it sounds. Yeah, it's it's true.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

I mean, and they usually know the answer. Yeah, it's the crazy thing. If you ask them, and if they don't know the answer, they'll give you the answer. Exactly. You'll win it the way not backward at coming forward, but they've usually got an opinion, and if you listen, you you usually get something else. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Um it's been an absolute pleasure, and and the key question for me is not that you would invite me to your house, but if we went to your house and you were putting on a three-course meal and you had to cook it, what would be the three-course? Now, my my expectation is through the roof with your worldly experiences. So if there's a spag bowl and a tomato soup, I'll be incredibly disappointed. So, what would be your your start of mane and dessert?

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Got me thinking about the soup bit. I mean, it's a hot day, so I I love gazpacho. Um that that would and I do make a pretty good gazpacho, so I'd definitely uh I definitely throw that in there early on, I think. Um what would I have as a mane? I don't know, I can't go wrong with uh with something simple. I love simple food. I hate overly engineered food that's been messed about with. Yeah, let the flavour. Good flavours come out, that that sort of thing. So I'd yeah, I I love a yeah, bit of chicken on the barbecue, bit of steak. We do a there's a cut of meat called a a beef skirt. And just get that, put it on the barbecue, slice it up on a big wooden board table, homemade chimichuri, which I love making, throw that, bit of salad on the side, a few potatoes, nothing.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

You're not allowed, but I would if you put some chia butter on the side, I'll probably make a bit of a chimichuri steak for that.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

Perfect. That would be really nice. And then see, I I have I'm as I was saying earlier, I'm trying to eat healthily, and I I try and avoid pudding as much as I can. But I do, you know, you want something sweet at the end of a meal? So my restaurant test, a sign of a good restaurant for me. Nobody ever has a fruit salad on the menu, which I think is crazy because everybody's trying to eat healthily. It's got to be cheap, you must be able to make a couple of quid on it because it's just simple ingredients.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Things make it look a lot better.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

So I I would say, okay, what have you got in the back of the fridge? Have you got any fruit? Will you make me a fruit salad? And about two in ten restaurants will go, we haven't got one on the menu, but I'll sort it. And they'll go and they'll just two in ten. Two in ten. Yeah. Most restaurants will go, sorry, we don't do fruit salad. And I think that that says so much about that service. And I immediately judge a restaurant. The best one was the Ivy, where they actually listen in in a in a slightly creepy way, but I quite like it, into your conversation when you're talking about stuff when the waiter's standing there, he's paying attention. And he said, I heard you mention about wanting a fruit salad. Do you want us to prepare one for you? It's not on the menu. So they did it proactively. And he was telling a story about how they did uh they went out and got a kid a Mars bar because that's all they wanted. They nipped out to the local co-op, bought a Mars bar, stuck it on a plate, and gave it to the kid. And the parents were like, Oh my god, this is the best restaurant ever. I love that that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

That you can you can use this, maybe copyright me at the bottom of the book. But do you do fruit salad? Yeah, I don't worry, business book. Exactly. Because there's a lot of value in that, and I think you know, anyone, anyone watching, listening, it's that receptiveness, it's the channel receptiveness to our customers, but then also it's the channel businesses receptiveness to their customers. Absolutely. Do you do fruit salad? No, but yeah, how could and and use that as an opportunity. It's the businesses that go, sorry, you don't do that, never done that. Yeah, closed off.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

And and listen and engage in if you handle it right, you might still sell them a lemon meringue pie because you go, come on, you deserve a treat, bit of banter, and suddenly they've bought a lemon meringue pie from you. But it's the people who just close off and go, No, we just fruit salad.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

You know, if you look, you you you've mentioned the ivy. I'm sure that I'm not the first person you told this story to. Yeah, they'll have had business on the back of you talking about it, you're more inclined to go back there. It it if if you extrapolate that across anything, you can see the the benefit, and ultimately what's it cost them? They've got fruit there. Exactly. They just a bit of chop chop the bowl. Any cream? Done. Oh no cream, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

A bit of ice cream will do. Yeah, yeah, ice cream's out. Yeah, I'd go with that.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

But uh yeah. Fruit salad's the key. Do you know what? My my kids would love you. Although my daughter, my little daughter, she's got um tea for a bit of her uh needs some teeth work because she's obsessed with fruit. Right, the sugar in the fruit, it's not sweet, she'll see sweets. So we're happy to live at her fruit, which is bizarre. Um thank you so much for your time. I think the the bit I would say, if there's one bit, and I'm kind of this is very prevalent in my mind with with Maggie, my middle child, with uh her deafness, is it a hundred percent shows you know my biggest fear when uh Maggie was identified as as deaf, like as a baby, they put these things on, don't they? You don't yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you know if a baby's deaf? Um, is her choices in life will be limited in some way, and I want her to be judged if she's good or not good, effectively, in the most basic form. Yeah, and if she's good, off she goes. Yeah, and I think for anyone in those situations with staff or looking at careers, looking at yourself, the education system as was then would not expect you to be in the position you are in, they would have thought you would be um in a in a hell of a different world, yeah, yeah. Probably still in Sussex, maybe working on a farm, yeah. Nothing wrong with those jobs, though they're great jobs, but they would not have put you in the the position you're in, yeah. And you've been able to benefit your son and people you work with. So I think it's so important, and I think that's my huge takeout. There's loads of other stuff on the case.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

See the difference difference as a superpower, because that's absolutely what it is, because you yeah, you you you make up with it with so many other skills and capability, and yeah, I think normal is a curse, it's nothing worse than being normal. So that's the second book we can do together.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

So do you do fruit salad and normal is a curse. Yes, absolutely. Here we go. Thank you. I'll tell you what, Will Goodall. Will and Will, thank you so much. Thank you, absolute pleasure. Oh, we enjoyed that. That's up there. Um he sat opposite me, so it's a bit cheesy doing this, and I'm I'm like I'm authentic to my course. I always feel creepy saying that, but this flew by. We probably could have done three, four, five hours on on Will's career, and we've we've kind of gone over and skipped around and gone through bits, but it's resonated a lot with me. I mean, if you look at um his journey starting off in Sussex in a farm, kind of working for Shell, the master of lubricants. Hopefully, we we might use that as a title for a pod. But the skills he's learnt, the entrepreneurial skills, the focus on partners and his people, travelling in his mid-30s when we're all probably chasing a wage and an income, um, and doing it almost in spite of an education system at the time, which which kind of didn't rate him. And I think that's so important to us all when we look at things and people judge us or want to put us in particular boxes, be it anyway, uh, to show that through hard work, through relationships, through just challenging and and wanting to be better, how where you can go in life. Um, it's been an absolute pleasure. I've got loads from it. It's been you know, really fortunate in my role to sit here. So I hope you enjoyed it. I would say, and I know we'll be okay. If if anyone similar side of things goes, do you know what really resonates? I'm sure Will wouldn't mind people reaching out, have a chat. Um obviously, Gamma channels going strength to strength with with Will there, and um, you know, it's a pleasure to see businesses like that in the channel, like ourselves, who are focused on their their customers. So thank you so much, Will. And uh I hope you enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 53:40

Absolute pleasure, really, really enjoyed it. And as you say, could have talked for hours.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

So yeah, if I'd had a beer, we'd still be going, so it's good.

SPEAKER_02 53:46

And we'd love to speak to anybody who yeah who wants to chat.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Oh, you're a gent. Thank you so much. Thank you. This is for Leslie Goodall, who uh will be watching this, or only one. I'm only joking. I think we're at about 100,000 plus um impressions on LinkedIn, which apparently marketeers tell me is a good thing. Six, 700 odd downloads, which for you know, someone chatting nonsense in the channel is quite good. Um, obviously, if you enjoyed this episode, please like, please subscribe. Um, check out future episodes, previous episodes. We work and only speak to proper people in the channel. There's no advertisements, there's no this is the individual we chat to, there's so much value I feel. Um so make sure you uh you check it out. Thank you.